A word of caution about coming across as too cheap on first dates. An intelligent woman once explained to me that if she is having a lot of first dates, say, from Tinder or online dating, she can surmise that the guy she is on the first date with is doing the same. If she found him too cheap, it was a sign to her she wasn't much of a priority in his busy dating schedule.

You shouldn't listen to women on how to treat women. Most have no idea, and even those who do will have a hard time properly explaining it.

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That is true of most women, but not all women, and not this particular woman, who is very knowledgeable of the LA dating scene from which the majority of the PUA culture originates. My point is not "spend extravagantly on dates", my point is not to appear coming across as cheap if a woman is going to pick up on it. For the record, I avoid dinner dates.

Your point is valid, but what I'm saying is that you don't need a woman to tell you something which in essence is plain obvious.
Ofcourse you don't want to be a cheap fuck. At the same time you don't want to be buying her attention.

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I usually work it as a trade. I tell a girl if I’m doing something for her, she’s got to do something for me because I believe in an equal relationship, which is true. Then I tell her to suck on my dick, and take it from there.

She’s willing to make demands of me, why should I be allowed to make demands of her and what she should do as a woman on the first date, since she’s deciding what I should do as a man?

I’m willing to compromise and do something for her, but she needs to do something for me in return. Nothing complex.

But you're probably too scared to say that because a few years ago I sure as I would've been, because I wasn't a real alpha male, but just remember this, real alpha male would be fearless with her, wouldn't say or do anything he didn't already want to say or do, and wouldn't even be asking this question.

Not to be mean, but it's the truth.

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This is somewhat inspirational and all but kind of off topic when it comes to the subject in question. Unless what you are saying is that you offer to take her out but the trade-off is a blow job. Are you saying that you say all of that up front?

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Well, here's more specifically how I would say/handle it:

It's the guy's job to pay for dinner and support his girl, but it's also the girl's job to take care of her man, you obviously know by taking you out to dinner I want you to be happy, so I'm going to assume you're just as concerned about my happiness, and that you want to do something nice for me afterward, right?

This puts her in the position of having to say she'll give as much as he's trying to take, and essentially making her responsible for her behavior, instead of just demanding and acting like she's owed things on the premise of her gender, because the premise of her gender also comes with the expectation that she should give you other things.

You're not asking her for anything unreasonable, you're simply saying you do something nice for her, that since she would want you to be happy just like you want her to be happy and are doing something nice, she'll do something nice for you in return.

I mean, it's a personal thing of course, but I'd personally don't have time for bullshit, and I want to know right up front of a woman's playing with me, or if she actually will want to do something nice for me in return for when I do something nice for her.

Not only is this important for the first date, but it tells me a A LOT about how the rest of the relationship is going to go, because we're setting the frame from the very first night.

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I'm all for the mindset and agree with it for the most part. My question is revolving how you communicate this in a first date scenario. Personally, I think it's counterproductive to even communicate this because explaining why gives the woman a reason to explain why not. Actions, from my experience, is better than explaining.

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Huh? I may have missed something chris, but are you saying you tell woman on the first date that you'll take them out for dinner to make them happy, and afterwards you assume they'll do something that night to make you happy and this works for you? I'm just confused because many guys talk like that and girls just call them creeps to even verbalize something about who is paying and what that means in return. Maybe I missed something.

Are you saying just let my actions do the talking? If I just leave it alone I let the woman have her why not, I pay for dinner and get nothing in return, except her using some gender stereotypes to set the tone that she’s the one leading me around and controlling me, because I don’t have any other women so I’ll spend that much money to try to win her over.

Imagine that you paid for a date, she left, gave you a kiss on the cheek, then she called up her big black ex-boyfriend telling him how much he still turned her on, how she wanted him to come over and fuck her, and she had leftovers from dinner from some #she just went on a date with who paid for her.

Are you going to be okay with this scenario, or were you looking for something more when you took her out to dinner?

If you don’t communicate this it gives her an open door to start manipulating you from the very beginning, and I’m not saying all women are gonna do that, but my experiences a majority will, and you can never be too careful.

And yes, I would and have communicated that to women.

There’s a reason women have no interest in spending time with wimps, and hang out with guys who don’t give a should about them, because even if they don’t like a guy, this alpha behavior is the kind of behavior that makes her chemically and biologically ADDICTED to a man.

She’ll come back to the same way a drug addict will come back to heroin.

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Neo,

I’m not telling you what to do it all, but I’ve been through this 1000 times, and if you want to set the frame of the relationship that she’s in control, and she gets you to do something for her while giving nothing in return on the first date, that’s your choice.

The difference between the way I do it, and the way most guys do it, is if you read the way I wrote it, I’m telling her that I’m doing something nice for her, and taking her out to dinner, and assuming she’s a caring person, she’d want to do something nice for me and make me happy to.

I tell her because she wants a fair two-way relationship where we both consider each other’s feelings, right?

I basically use women’s own statements against them, because if she says no she’s a hypocrite and a gold digger who, based on her answer to that question is basically admitting she just wants me to give her something, doesn’t want to give me anything in return, or wants to decide when to give me something in return whenever she feels like.

I always bring this up with a woman, simply because it’s either that or set yourself up to be at a very common risk of getting manipulated and used, but ultimately it’s your choice, and if you’re okay with that I’m not here to tell you what’s right and wrong, you’re a grown adult and can make your own choices lol.

I’m simply telling you what to watch out for, and what to do based on experience.

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But who pays for dinner has nothing to do with who's in control. You can pay for a girl's dinner, doesnt mean she's in control, no more than asking her out in the first place gives her control.

Also, by verbalizing it in that way, you're actually making it an exchange, not about making someone happy which the words would imply. If I tell you, hey I'll promote your website and you'll be happy and you'll promote my website and make me happy right? you wont fool yourself that I actually care about making you happy. Its just an exchange. When you attach a requirement onto the action, even if said under the guise of considering each other's feelings, it just makes it more obvious that its not about considering each other's feelings.

And even verbalizing it, a girl who was going to bang her ex afterwards would still say sure, and send you on your way after the date. If a girl does agree to hook up in exchange for dinner, well ok, but thats what shes agreeing to. And if she is that dtf then why not just take her home and skip the date. If I walk around the bar and tell a girl I'll buy you a drink to make you happy and youll give me your number to make me happy, she's not gonna think she's doing anything besides trading her number for a drink. And if she does that, she can walk away after I buy the drink, she can give a wrong number, or just not pick up. And if she does pick up and its a real number, I couldve gotten it from just being upfront and honest. I'm sorry, I'm racking my brain to think of a situation in dating where verbalizing an exchange dealing with intimacy in a serious manner is actually a good idea.

This technique makes no sense to me. It doesnt keep you from getting manipulated, because a verbal agreement can be fake. It reveals your agenda when dating, which is fine, but in that case, just skip dinner and bang. It takes away plausible deniability and if thats the case, why not just skip the date when she's willing to exchange a bj for dinner? Or just give her the money.

I mean, if you're picking up the chicks who exchange sex for dinner up front like that, then fine, thats your choice. But I just cant see this doing anything besides making dinner seem like a big deal and making sex/bjs a form of payment instead of a spontaneous act. I dont think Ive ever been manipluated for a drink or dinner and Ive never used this. Or for that matter, ever felt that a girl was in control, or felt like she was whether she payed, I payed or we split. I dont ever think if I payed for a date, I'm owed something. If that was my mentality I'd just find a prostitute and not waste my time. Thats not to discredit you, just I dont get your mentality.

I'm not saying anything about letting her have her way and I get nothing for it. If that's how you look at things then we just view things differently. If I ask a girl out, I pay. I have no problem with that. I just don't put her under any pressure of, I do this for you so you have to do something for me. On the flip side of that, my actions aren't timid and I go for what I want and I don't need words to communicate that.

By saying that you can be manipulated by not stating what you want is wrong. You get manipulated when you allow a woman to have you act outside of your normal behavior. As a matter of fact, stating what you want can lead you into being manipulated:

Him: I'll take you to dinner, but you have to do something nice for me afterwards.
Her: That sounds good.
You have dinner with the girl and then take her back to your place
Her: This is too fast/I started my period today/You shouldn't expect sex because you paid for dinner.
Now you're upset because you paid for dinner and she didn't follow up on her end of the deal

Talking about what you're going to do and what you expect is the opposite of being seductive. It's the same as the guys that vomit their feelings out for women and scare them away. Even worse, you're taking an emotional experience and trying to make it a logical transaction. There is no emotion in that and triggering emotions is what makes the panties wet.

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I should have just said this

You're right, this is just a situation where we see things differently.

I was thinking of it based on the way I used to see it, and the way I see it now, where I used to have typical thinking, were a guy buys a woman dinner, but he unconsciously sets up the expectation with her of something in return, and if he doesn't get it he becomes angry and bitter.

But you're right too, and I like your thinking on this, that just because you buy a woman dinner, if you don't care if she throws it at the wall, run the trash, or whatever she does with it, because it's her dinner, then you're just being a nice guy.

I just don't like playing the vague ambiguous line. I'm the type of guy who likes to be very clear about everything, so there's absolutely no room for misinterpretation or misconception.

the problem with your dinner scripted though, is the woman will literally say those things to a guy, and make up reasons not to have sex, when of her ex-boyfriend who knew exactly how to get her wet took her out, all those things are just that - excuses - she'll drop her panties the minute she is horny.

I'm just thinking from a different paradigm, because when you mention taking a girl out for dinner, I I don't do "dates", and with me it's usually because she insists on going out, and she starts with all that "the guy is supposed to pay" bullshit, so I bring up the fact that the woman is supposed to take care of man when he takes care of her.

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