I guess you could say I have no trouble forming relationships - they're just not the ones I want.

I wouldn't say I have a problem with confidence. At parties I always end up in conversations with the most attractive girls (sometimes more than one), while all the other guys are just standing up against the wall.

The vibe I get from girls, is that I'm friendly, understanding, somewhat entertaining / amusing, sexy, and probably really good in bed - yet they wouldn't date me, no way. I get the feeling they don't see me as masculine / mature enough. (I've got steps I want to take to address this though)

Something that might be worth mentioning is that males and females just open right up to me, sometimes within a few hours of them knowing me. People tell me stuff they don't even tell their family. I don't mind it, and feel like I'm good at helping people feel good, but I still have no idea why this happens almost out of nowhere.

The only real dates I have ever really had are with girls that have very low self esteem. The vibe I get from them is (a) they go after me because they don't think they're shooting that high, and (b) they fall in love with the psychiatrist in me.

I only got into this PUA stuff last year, and this is something that I still haven't shaken and looks to be my biggest hurdle. Has anyone else been through something similar?

Sounds to me like your excellent at building comfort, but lacking in the attraction/arousal arena.

The way I see game, is you've basically got 3 things, and everything else is merely a tool to help you achieve those 3 things.

- Attraction
- Arousal
- Comfort

Comfort on it's own pretty much gets you in the position your describing. Usually you'll only be able to escalate into the friend zone.

Attraction+arousal without comfort leave the girl feeling regretful about the whole thing. She'd be too uncomfortable in your company to meet you again. You'll get laid, but it'll only ever be a one night stand.

And comfort+attraction, without the arousal leaves you with someone interested, happy in your company, but without ever going anywhere. You can't escalate anywhere useful.

It seems to be you need to work on building your attraction & arousal. Attraction comes down to DHV'ing. Research it, find out your prefered method of demonstrating value and run with it. I personally go natural & find "being in the moment" is all i need.

As for arousal, i break it down into sexual tension, sexual framing and sexual state. Chief has an excellent post on this stickied on one of the forums.

Sexual State - In a social encounter the dominant person will usually project their state onto the less dominant person. Ever been in a bad mood and someone really happy has come long and made you laugh, despite your best efforts to maintain your bad mood? That's state projection.

We want to project a sexual state to whoever we're gaming. This requires us to lead the encounter in order to affect others' states. And also maintain a sexual state ourselves. A sexual state is being aroused in a controlled manner, without obviously being aroused.

The target will gain your state of arousal through state projection and then backwards rationalize that she must like you because you're making her aroused.

Sexual Framing - This is basically using language in such a way that she get's a mental picture of you guys having sex. E.g

Girl: Let's go..
Guy: Have sex?
Girl: To the pub
Guy: What? Oh.. nevermind
Girl: *laughs*

and finally sexual tension - this is the art of using ambiguity to give her a sense of intrigue.

Again throughout this whole process you want to come across like your having a normal conversation.

You'll use sexually charge language in a non sexual context. You'll use innuendo to create sexual images out of harmless conversation. And you'll describe things creatively and sensually to create emotions.

All of this creates sexual images, but without an obvious sexual intent. This gives plausible deniability, and get's round the slut defense. You'll both know your flirting, but if anyone calls her out she'll be able to say "we were just having a conversation about oranges".

And the final key to sexual tension is kino, touching her seemingly accidentally, without being obviously sexual. You might brush past her breast, but in an accidental manner.

All of that combined should leave her thinking "Did he mean to say that? Did he mean to touch me like that?"

It's all under the radar, but completely sexual.

Try creating arousal, and DHV'ing for attraction and you'll be golden.

Hope that helped. Any questions ask away.

Wolfus

I think you spotted my weak areas pretty acurately, and now that I think about it, I think I am pretty good at the innuendo and flirting and possibly getting her turned on, so if I had to describe my problem area keeping in mind what you've said, I'd say that without any attraction (masculinity and maturity), even if what I do sort of works to begin with, eventually they've felt disgusted that they ever felt turned on by me, maybe even deceived by my comfort, which would explain a lot of wierd behaviour I've encountered later on.

Having said that, I think my arousal could do with some experience and refinement, so it's more controlled. At the moment it's more like I'm at the wheel of something that's powerful but I'm not entirely sure where to steer it.

I know that I want to naturally build my attraction and arousal skills, but if you know of any good reference material, that would be awesome (movies, pick up artist documentaries, etc). I'd like to see some visual examples of guys in action. I really believe most of it lays in the body language and tone of voice, all the non verbal cues - so much of the dialogue advice I read can be taken in a really pervy way without all the framework and stuff.

Touching is crucial in the seduction part, you have to work it up slowly, touching her in places where she can barely notice (best done while dancing). start with elbows/ arms/ lower back, then move to hands/ hair /waist. Remember Eye contact. And get that kiss close, i heard this somewhere b4 and it stuck "whats the difference between friends and lovers? a kiss"

I know that Ryan Reynolds says that in Just Friends...I'm guessing that's where it's from. That being said, I think that is a pretty good PUA movie, especially at the start. I think the ending might be a little bit AFC, but I don't want to spoil it for anyone who hasn't seen it! Good comedy though, IMHO.

As far as any movies to watch, just think of basic BA alpha males, and they are generally the guys you want to emulate. Ryan Reynolds usually works a TON of cocky funny in his comedies (Just Friends, Van Wilder, Waiting, etc.). I also like Sean Connery, De Niro and Brad Pitt as general BAMFs, but I'm sure there are many other examples.

Right i'm with you Conker. I had this problem last night actually, I was rather inebriated and let my attraction drop, straight away the anti slut defense came up.

Comfort and Arousal without attraction is like kissing a friend, they might enjoy it, but it's just a bit weird.

I'm attempting to find some video for you, but in the mean time let me clarify exactly what each thing is.

Comfort - Making the other person feel safe, how you talk to guy friends or a child. Conversation with a child is the purest form of comfort I can think of. You make it blatant through everything you do, there's no ulterior motives.

Attraction - Displaying value. Bragging covertly. Implying things that make you look more attractive. Never verbally stated.

E.g

HB: Are you ever tempted to knock the displays over in supermarkets?
Guy: Haha yeah, gina walked into this massive one in iceland and the whole store literally paused. She was so embarrassed.
HB: OMG! I would totally DIE!

You've not said anything, but from that statement she's thinking "He has female friends, he must be high value" "He's been to iceland, he likes to travel"

You've just built attraction and on the surface it appears as if you've not even done anything.

You mention body language - this is mostly used for attraction. Generally I use it to convey a state of inner peace, relaxation and a sense of "This doesn't bother me. I do this all the time."

The key points I tend to stick to are:

Slow. Everything is done slowly. I'm in the moment, there's no rush. I walk slowly, I speak slowly - I have no fear of being cut off or judged, what I say is worth hearing. Speed is the key indicator of nervousness.

Smile. Always smile, otherwise you'll come across as slightly weird/serial killer-ish. People will instantly feel awkward. It's surprising how many guys don't do this.

Eye contact. Maintain healthy eye contact. Don't be afraid to look someone in the eye's when they speak, but don't hold it forever or you'll come off intimidating. Also, look to the side or up when you break eye contact. Link this with your smile, smile through your eyes.

Tone - Say everything normally, your not trying to pick up. Your just having fun. Don't try and put on some bedroom voice. Also, learn to speak from the stomach. Alot of guys will speak from the throat when they're nervous and in set, this makes everything come out high pitched. Excellent article on it here: http://www.seductionbase.com/seduction/ ... a/715.html


And another excellent article on natural DHV's here: natural-game-dhvs-demonstrating-higher- ... 36654.html


And to address your last point - Arousal is something you just need to practice and calibrate. A fun exercise is to see how much arousal you can create without being obvious.

Anyway, literally cannot comprehend game in this state of hangover.

Take it easy, Wolfus.

Conker, u just need to dial in and find out what your appeal is to these girls....

Obviously your a descent talker and can hold interest..jesus christ brah your lucky to obtain this technique 1st, some dudes can game and what not but when it comes down to the nitty gritty they fail because of not having the ability to talk/listen.

PLEASE, do not talk about geeky shit with these chicks. This one dude i know would totally progress with a number of chicks like clock work( i thought this guy was reading all the PUA material actually). Then he'd start talking about tv shows and video games with these girls. You can guess where that ended, bitches straight pushed his ass to the side as nothing more than a mere friend to talk to. Then the dude complains to me these girls just want your money/wallet. Im thinking brah with the shit you just talked about with these chicks you DQ'd yourself. Check it

Video games ----> Shows one has alot of times on his hands, maybe too much to be wasting it on video games

THEN this fuck would be sitting with me(around the same girls) talking 100% about video games, id purposesly say nah brah i dont play em much, I sold that game i needed money, barely played it didnt have time(etc.)

Wolfus, you hit it on the head again - making out with friends, that's EXACTLY what it feels like... also I am really digging the tips you gave -I caught up with this thread last week and have been putting this stuff into practice before posting again. I can see a small improvement in behavior with the girl I'm seeing already... (but I'm a long way off where I need to be, see below...)

Maf-PbC - thanks for the compliment - I do realise it's a great skill, I just have NFI what to do with it... also thanks for the reminder on the game stuff - being a game developer I always know to watch that

johnyp03 - funny how Brad Pitt KEEPS coming up as an example. We were watching Snatch on a tour bus, and when he squared up and threw his first punch in the movie, all the girls on the bus started giggling like school girls... my jaw dropped.

dach - Yeah kino... actually that brings me to my current situation...



The girl I'm currently seeing - we're REALLY GOOD FRIENDS. Sick of being in this situation. Worst part is, she's fun loving and has made out with about 10 guys over the past year, when the moment and the guy was right (no way is she a slut, she's a lovely person). Of course, she's told me everything. And yet she's not attracted to me at ALL. This really kills me.

Escalating phsyically didn't work, the way it did with the "low self-esteem" girls - tried a massage and sitting closer, rubbing tummy etc. her breathing didn't change so I stopped it there. Later she told me that close massage made her feel very uncomfortable. We had a long talk - to sum up, I said I'd made a mistake, just doing what felt good, and she concluded I'm just naive and slow but a nice guy at heart, who will look after her.

Whenever she's talking to me at length, her mannarisms turn me on, she's so cute, and her body is amazing (she's thin, tanned, but somehow has great curvy hips in her bone structure), and my gut gets twisted up with insane desire to make out with her and not being able to do anything about it, and also another layer of anguish on top knowing that other guys have simply followed their gut feelings with her and it worked out great - but somehow when I did it, it was wrong.

I know what you're thinking - "one-itis", but you know what I'm thinking? This is just the next girl where I end up in the same situation, yet again. I want to do something about it. Maybe not with this one, maybe the next, but I at least want to start here.

So, now things are coming to a turning point with her and me. She keeps telling me I'm talking less and thinking more, and she keeps asking me what I'm thinking. All I've told her is that I'm not telling (bit of mystery at least) and she's not allowed to guess. She keeps pressing me, so I told her if it continues to be a problem, I will tell her.

And yet she's still hanging out with me and is super compliant - I can massage her hands and feet while she talks (even that drives me nuts, her feet are so feminine and smooth), I can carry her around spontaniously and do other silly things with her, she likes a fun time and trusts me I guess.

I feel I'm missing the masculine attraction those guys had that she made out with. I guess that's what it boils down to and I have to work on it and it's not gonna be fixed over night, and there's probably no specific advice anyone can give me in this situation.

But I feel like I'm at breaking point with this girl and will tell her something, just to get it out. If I told her anything it would be along the lines of - that her mannarisms, personality, and amazing figure make me want to do stuff with her - at least that way I'd be telling her what's happening, and not making a judgement, eg. I have feelings for you and want to date you.

Conker, you sound like a young version of me. How old are you?

Anyway, in regards to your problem I would advise to keep doing what you are doing but collect as much information from the field about human interaction as you can. Don't try to follow some of the way too simple (yet ironically always written in about 1000 word posts) formulae people will give you on here. If you want something to read in your downtime, I recommend shock and awe approach and the Gunwitch method, but seriously if what you find in the field is different to what anyone says, go with the field.

It's a bit like economics. The market is never wrong. Same principle: the field is never wrong.

ahhhhhh shit man. Lets try a new route here for you conker...althought something puzzles me. Why would this chick be around you if shes not interested? And she let you touch her/massage her? I got a feeling she let you come in to see what your made of and you just sweeped lightly...realizing you didnt put a hard move on her therefore your not really a threat.

WTF is next for you to possibly do with her if you already progressed with all them actions? From what it sounds like, she actually gave you a chance, and you were confused/inable to act because of your mindset thinking you DONT HAVE what it takes.

Id say save your ass and end it, THEN next time something like this goes down with a girl, make moves accordingly. That way if you lean in for a kiss and get it you can guarantee she likes you, otherwise if it does not work out you wont be all confused and can realize Hey shes not interested in me.

Sounds like you made it in via what skills you have now, whether they be masculine or not, and you just had to do more driving as a girl like that wont be as wild/forward with some dude thats on the otherside of the spectrum

Thanks half_natural, I will add those things to my list of stuff to look up.

Thanks Maf-PbC, you might be right - maybe I didn't move fast enough, maybe I should have invited her out earlier, for some nice things, trip on the river, coffee etc. then gone for a kiss. Instead I was just gradually escalating physically. Mostly because I've been busy - but I guess if I can't put 100% into something I shouldn't be surprised if it doesn't go great.

I think my bigger problems have been answered, so thanks everyone. This girl is important to me, so I'm just gonna put updates here on the off chance that anyone can give more specific help. Most likely it's already fucked completely. Something drastic happened today.




Just a bit of background that I hadn't mentioned earlier - she actually lives with me in a share house, but is a real temporary stay. She's having fun in Australia, and I wanted to be one of those guys she talks about who are able to give her that fun. She did seem excited for me to come out with her, but I almost feel like I was just filling in the gap when her guy she wanted to see wasn't responding.

She's sort of seeing 2 guys for about 2 months - they keep screwing her around, I tried hard to make it work, but right from the start I've been saying "move on." Now she's irrational - she tells me a problem, and if I ever slip in a "you need to move on" she gets mad?? I got firm with her a week ago and told her she has to stop this, because it's all we ever talk about. She seemed to agree.

But, she kept it up ever since. Today she sent me an email with a message from the guy she was most interested in, saying he was really after another girl, and now she's angry because she could've made plans instead of waiting to see if he'd show up. I told her I was mad too, and told her she should tell him. Instead she replies and says she told him she thinks he's making up that story because he's afraid to see her. And then she went on to defend her other guy in the same message. And then added "and I don't want a hug or anything when you get back home!" if It was an insinuation that I hug to much, I can only remember 2 times in the last month. So now I've lost my patience with her issues, AND insulted in the same email.

As I'm thinking of how to reply - she gets on chat. It's all about these guys, and I'm replying with single word answers. Then she starts to get angry for the advice I gave her. I told her "I'd love to be talking face to face with you right now. It would be good." she said "Why" and I said "Because I'd love to see how you can talk to me as if any of this is my fault." She stepped back and said I was partially at fault, and anyway if I was in her shoes she would have done the same thing. I was furious. I said "No, I've told you I wouldn't put up with these guys behaviour if they were girls. You're only doing it because you haven't met nice guys before. And you're not giving other nice guys out there a chance." Then she types in all caps and states that she already told me she's not going to move on, and is fed up with me saying that.

So I simply said "I know. So don't complain to me about them anymore please." And she said "no i wont" and then "no worries". And I didn't reply even though she was online all day. I felt that she could stew in her own juices for a while, and think about what she's done. That is, IF she realises.

So I'm back at home now and it's the first time since day one that she's had her door shut in the afternoon. I honestly think I did the right thing. When I read this, she sounds completely nuts, and I'm sure anyone else reading it would think the same thing. In fact I'm not sure her own friends would recognise her in this, because I'm sure she never tells her friends all these things. For some reason I get this side - I get into girls and end up being their psychologist, and it actually always ends up like this. I hit their wall and they hate me for it. I've been told I'm super nice and shouldn't change that - but right now, I think being nice is fucking useless, at least to the extent I do it. It's all I know, and I have to find another way to get into girls and have them get into me. I think the tips I've been given earlier on in this thread might set me on the right path.

But if anyone has any thoughts on what I might have missed, I'd really appreciate it.

Well, I know what I missed now - I was being a bit AFC and having a bit of one-itis, truth be told.

I realised I did too much AFC stuff around this girl, and although I've changed my ways, the damage was already done. So I took a more hard nosed approach - told her not to leave the lights on if she's not using them, in a no questions allowed kind of way. She wasn't used to me being that authoratative, and tried to retalliate. We ended up airing personal issues. I could see we were covering the same ground and I already decided our situation wasn't recoverable and I was going to end this. I'd already decided that, by the end of this discussion, unless her behaviour towards me drastically changed for some incredible reason, we weren't talking ever again, I'd practically had enough.

When we reached a point in the discussion where she felt she had the upper hand (on a very minor point, which I backed down on to let her air her problems) She tried to end the conversation at that point, saying she was out of time and needed to call someone. I realised she always does this, and now I knew I'd had enough.

I wasn't going to insist that she continue paying attention just so I could end it, I don't think that's alpha - I was just going to leave it, but not before going deep inside myself and tell her what I really thought, because I knew otherwise it was going to eat away at me. As I was leaving, I said "Once again we stop talking when YOU'RE happy, and I feel like an idiot for listening to your side of the story while you ignored mine. I'm sick of hearing about the same problems over and over which you refuse to do anything about. But the most frustrating part is that when you ask for my advice and it's not what you want to hear, you get angry! That's not the behaviour of a rational person, that's someone who's not dealing with their issues, and taking it out on the outside world instead. So unless you have anything to add, we're done talking about this." And I really was ready to end the discussion there.

Suddenly she found a bit more time to talk to me, because she spent quite a few minutes responding with a huge spiel, defending her actions with the same reasons she knew I didn't buy, and was in fact just cementing what I'd just said about her. She tried to finish with something hurtful by saying she didn't want to chat much anymore, and that she was taking my advice and not talking to people who are difficult in her life.

Without missing a beat, I said - "Well you know I think those excuses are a load of shit, but whatever helps you sleep at night. I'm glad you are finally taking some of my advice, I hope it holds you in good stead. It works out well for the both of us."

I was able to just come out with that because I was speaking straight from the heart. I already formed an opinion of her, and I'd already decided what I wanted - I just wanted to be done with her.

We haven't talked since, and I must say, when I come home in the evening I no longer feel that "I have to tip toe around her" vibe. And sure it ended "badly" but I don't feel like I was the one that lost out. I feel like I learned something important here.

Oh shit you became a ear/shrink.....just talked to you about her guy troubles. Usually thats bad news from the start if things progress like that...but you learned.Now you know what girls to stay away from in the future...got em red flagged

Conker what kind of chick was this anyways? average white girl, hot, ugly, foreigner, goth/emo?

It's true - the main thing I've learned is to not get into girls minds anymore, no matter how much they push for it. That puts me in the psychiatrist zone, which is a type of "friend zone".

Not easily categorised - she's a forgiener, German, but since spending a few years in Australia is a real beach bunny, usually goes on surfing tours, camping, drinking on the beach with people etc. Very slim but amazingly wide hips for someone so slim. She has an okay face that can look stunning in certain ways, so she tends to be one of the "in demand" girls, but not as often as someone who's "traditionally hot".