This is what I think,let me know if you think I'm wrong. When you message a woman online the first thing she will look at is your picture, & if she's not attracted she wont even read what you wrote. Women get bombarded with hundreds of messages each week from guys and they only reply to about 10% of them, being the better looking ones who they are phisically attracted to. Where as if you was to see her in person and you approached her, she would be much more responsive than online despite your looks-because it shows you have confidence as you approached her.
Some people will say this is bull and looks don't matter as long as you have a good profile showing you have social proof, but I don't agree. Sure it helps but online looks are the first impression and if she is not attracted to you she won't read your profile despite your qualities.

That's only because of the mechanics of most dating sites present information in that order. Generally speaking the equation is something like
value of photo + value of message = level of interest (with a tipping point)

value of photo is most likely more dependent on the nature of your features/image and associated perceptions and less dependent on whether you're better looking or not. This is more apparent if the nature of your image defines you in some social stereotype, especially with the extent of polarization. Plus Girls are generally pretty good at, reading and will factor in more subtle clues that indicate aspects of character and these are the things that you have more power over to manipulate.

value of photo + value of message = level of interest (with a tipping point)

Yes but if you can't get your foot through the door you don't get in, so they won't read to see if you are interesting. It's the same for men, if a fat ugly woman sent you a message we would probably not even bother reading her profile. If she is not attracted to your picture she won't reply,thats because women are spoilt for choice when it comes to online dating as they get so many men messaging them.
I find online dating harder than face to face.

One thing that is important here is
Whilst Female looks to men is a fairly linear scale but the same isn't true for women.
see http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/20 ... 153511.htm
Scientific research that says women cant agree between themselves what makes a guy attractive. Thus you can't simply put down lack of success to a looks issue.

Dating sites allow more thought in the process than real life. More thought brings cognitive processes into play. This means perception and interpretation become an issue. Since people use these skills less in similar circumstance in real life their ability to correctly interpret facts online leaves a lot to be desired.

My experience in this realm and female blogs indicates women look for reasons not to be interested rather than the opposite. Helped along by the fact that AFC guys are inclined to DLV themselves at every opportunity.

Take away the opportunity to make these decisions and things are a lot easier. For instance its much easier to get into conversations with women in an environment with no profiles. The only reason no photo doesn't usually work is because of the negative perceptions of such things but it would be interesting to see how girls react to a messages from a strong cocky profile but no picture.

Lion King I'm glad to say you are VERY WRONG about looks. I have gamed a LOT online and most of the time I had profiles with NO photos (the short reason was that I liked experimenting and I was working the free access on a dating website - posting pictures may have given it away!) Girls/women will respond more to a FUNNY, polite and strong email without a photo than a lame one with a photo. SOME girls will be very choosy on looks and to be blunt those girls OFFLINE would still be choosy. You do have to accept that you may NOT be their type. The great thing is that it is almost impossible to tell what their type is anyway - even they have no clue most of the time!

IMHO (and this depends on the online service used - some differ quite a bit) a girl will look at the Subject line of a mail, then check the mail, then check any thumbnail photo and finally check the profile. Some systems have a thumbnail image of your profile photo appear with the Subject Line, in this case the girls ARE likely to choose those with a profile picture over those without.

IMHO Girls are less choosy on looks than men. As a generalisation younger girls (teens and early 20s) are likely to be very choosy but once they get into their 30s they realise judging on looks is a bad method and so are more accommodating for the aesthetically challenged - which is cool.

IMHO Girls are less choosy on looks than men. As a generalisation younger girls (teens and early 20s) are likely to be very choosy but once they get into their 30s they realise judging on looks is a bad method and so are more accommodating for the aesthetically challenged - which is cool.[/quote]

I agree with you but I still find it hard to get a response from the majority of women and after a while I stopped online dating as I got pissed off. I email about 10 and around 2 or 3 get back, and most don't usually reply after I message back. I'm not ugly or fat, actually I'm a sexy mother fuker, lol, no I'm above average looking so it must be what the profile reads. What can you put in there that stands out?

Women respond to confident and direct messages from guys who have interesting profiles and look reasonably attractive/well groomed and not chumps. I am pretty average looking and I've had a lot of success dating from online.

Sorry but online women are very shallow and it's all about your height. I'm a pretty good looking guy but because I'm on the shorter side women simply don't respond to me. I have good pics and use a direct approach but it never works. The only thing I've succeeded at is not getting my message deleted on POF. Well that's my take on it anyway.

I agree with you but I still find it hard to get a response from the majority of women and after a while I stopped online dating as I got pissed off. I email about 10 and around 2 or 3 get back, and most don't usually reply after I message back. I'm not ugly or fat, actually I'm a sexy mother fuker, lol, no I'm above average looking so it must be what the profile reads. What can you put in there that stands out?[/quote]

At my best I was getting 50% replies to opener mails , average about 30% and lately about 10% - looks like a lost my online Mojo So do NOT expect the majority to reply.

The problem possibly lies in your opener and 2nd mails. Unless you push for a number or a real life meet in those 2 mails you may actually be sending a signal that YOU want it to stay online and some girls may not like that. The golden rule of online game imho is MOVE IT OFFLINE ASAP. Girls genuinely interested in meeting will be comfortable in 2 or 3 mails, any longer and you're just babysitting them and it will NEVER go offline.

I wanted to bold the part I did as its is 100% true. Girls say all the time what they want or who they think they want but very rarely end up with a guy that they describe. As very few actually know what they want. Most girls only know a few qualities that they want in a guy and thats it, the rest is really up in the air.
Girls even in their teens and 20's are not as picky over looks as us guys are, but they are certainly more pickier than their older counter parts as you mentioned. Tho I think some of this more has to do with girls willing to settle when it comes to looks. Because when a girl hits her 30's and has not had a kid her clock is ticking and so she is more likely to over look the physical looks of a guy as she wants a kid and if she remains picky the chances of her getting a guy will be lower. But older women (ie 40+) tend to be over looks and care more about what is in the inside of the guy than out.

Post your profile as well as what you put in your messages.

Maybe you should think about changing your game then. Because what you are doing now is not working for you. Saying that yes height factors in more with online game, especially with the taller girls. but if you have good game I think most will over look the height part.

Post your profile as well as what you put in your messages.[/quote]
I deleted my profile now, but it read something like. I'm looking for a fun,sexy,ambitious, down to earth female who shares same intrests as me. Then I list a few things that intrest me like hobbies, eaing out, working out, etc. Then I end it with, if you want to know anything else msg me and maybe I'll get back to you.
I don't put too much info otherwise there won't be much to talk about. Then when I message them I usually put " You have such a goofy smile(if they r smiling), but I'm sure your laugh is not as bad.lol. As I said before, it gets a response about 30% of the time and usually not the fit women.

Well I figured you would probably be curious to see my profile but I like to keep my anonymity. Trust me my game is pretty good. I've dated quite a few 8's and 9's. I've posted about this before. Here is the deal. In person I can game a girl all day long but every time I try online dating. Forget it! I like the idea of online dating because it is just more convenient when you have a busy schedule.

Here is an example I use. My last two girlfriends were both 8.5 - 9. I met them in bars. Would they have given me the time of day if I had met them online? HELL NO! Why? Because here is what women don't see online. They can't see your energy, how you carry yourself, confidence, the way you talk and so on. You get the idea. In all fairness I have had limited success from online dating before. I met and dated one girl online a long time ago. But when you're on the shorter side 5'6/5'7. It definitely affects the way women perceive you.

To be honest I have NEVER looked at a girl's height or taken my height into consideration. I have NEVER been asked even when my profile does NOT say! I'm average(?) height of 5 ft 9.

Let's rip to bits your logic or belief system so you can move on from this. I know it can be hard as I was a short in my teens so I do KNOW what it feels like

HOW do you know that the reason that girls do not respond is because of your height? Seriously - you will NOT be able to answer that. Perhaps you had a reply where a girl said it was your height - be grateful for their honesty and relieved that you didn't spend time with such a shallow minded girl! I guess you've had little or NO actual feedback saying this. Simply you are guessing their reasoning - it could be one of a million things? Who knows? More importantly - who cares?

Take heart there are some girls who do NOT like BIG guys...some find them very scary and intimidating.