Confidence is not genetic, its learned.

Good luck with that. Just the "naturally proportioned body" part limits you to like 10% of the population.... especially if you're going to hold something temporary like spray-on tans against a person!

So let me get this straight:

Point 1: I'm not supposed to message any girls because that "lowers my value."

Point 2: I'm not supposed to message chicks that are ten years younger than me, even though it has been my vast experience that MANY younger chicks ENJOY older men. (I'm 32, by the way)

Point 4: (the first one, actually 3 in order of your points) is decent. Trying to run MM and routine based pickup online is counter productive. There are better ways.

Point 5: True. Non-creeps don't have to say that they aren't creeps.

Point 4: (the second one) Wait, aren't you just saying the same thing you pointed out in point 1?

Honestly honey, I like where your heart is with this, but your post is kind of unorganized and quite frankly full of chick logic that I struggled to make sense of.

_________________
Johnny
www.organicseduction.com

Don't fool yourself, if a guy approaches you IRL, he thinks you're attractive. The proper response is to enjoy his attention, not to assume he's beneath you since he was attracted by your attractiveness (which you women meticulously maintain). By this logic, the guy that messages the least attractive women demonstrates the highest value?
Honey, honey. Everything you've told us is based on your perspective; ergo, everything you've told us is how to pick you (personal, singular) up.

But anyway, I really appreciate your perspective here, agent_visceral (are you a Palahniuk fan?). It's nice to have a female to break up the male mob mentality of ditch her, fuck her, kino her. I trust my peers have been treating you well. I now know teenagers don't date or find older men attractive (per point 2), but you teenagers are just so damn adorable with all your self-righteousness and opinionated whatnot.

P.S. Do you have any pics?

I don't hold it against them; I just make a conscious decision not to cum in them

In that statement I am referring to, what I consider to be, an ideal breeder. I will most likely never find her, yet it will always remain a side project

and speaking of which, have you ever got a mouth full of that spray-on tan, makeup, and a bunch of hair-care products? yuck! I took an HB9 home one night to "watch movies." Half way through the deed, I nicely suggested that we take a shower together.

How many of these girls are in the age range of 18 to 20? As I doubt many girls in that age range will go out with a much older guys. Now for girls that are in their early 20's 20 to 25 I can see more of them going out with an older guy.

I wouldn't know, J. I make it a rule to not message girls that I can't take into a bar with me. That being said though, I fucked a few 18-20 year olds last year, NOT from online game. It's only as big a deal as you make it. Hell, I know a 36 year old guy that regularly fucks 18-20 year olds. If I remember correctly, he usually pulls them off Myspace.

All that shit about girls' "rulles" gets trumped by solid game.

_________________
Johnny
www.organicseduction.com

lol.
Pretty much.

I've been treated pretty well thanks for asking minsok. As for your comments I'll address them now.



As for how I should respond to guys:

I'm not arguing about what my and many girl's "proper" response is in social situations, I'm arguing about what it is. The whole point of Pick-Up is that sex is not an activity governed by logic. If it was the "nice guy" would win all the time, because rationally he is the safest bet. The sad truth (along with the fact that uglier girls with great personalities often get overlooked) is that often the nice guy doesn't win. This is because women and men react to sexual situations emotionally not logically. Thus I can't control how I feel about a guy approaching me the same way you can't control how you feel about a girl who has a few extra pounds and a missing teeth. In fact I would suspect that you would suggest that she go to the gym and get some dental hygienic work done.

As for how my advice isn't applicable to other girls:

Anything, anyone ever says is based on their own personal experience and their perspective. Obviously the problem is a little bit more exaggerated because I am the target and not the hunter so I do have a one-dimensional view of "the game". I acknowledge that. However, the real point of me saying that I'm not here to give you information on how to pick me up isn't that my opinions and ideas are based on general principals and not personal experience, but that I'm not here for romance. I'm not here to be picked up, or meet guys. I'm not interested in meeting or dating anyone from this forum or other wise, that includes sending photos. Thanks for the sentiment though.


As for my post being disorganized:

That could very well be the case. Admittedly this is the first time I have ever written anything on the subject of Pick-Up, and so my thoughts were a little scattered. Hopefully as I come up with more ideas my ideas will become more cohesive.

AS for rules:

I'm not telling you what you can't do. I'm telling you what I think you should do. Not because I'm concerned about ethics, but because I'm concerned about success rate. You can message whomever you like. I'm just postulating on what will or will not work.

Thanks for your opinion.

Johnny:

AS for Chick Logic:
I'm curious as to how my post is full of "chick logic". If my logic isn't sound that's one thing, but that hardly makes it feminine, simply incorrect. If by chick logic you mean logic that follows the rules and conventions of society and not the conventions of pick-up, that may be the case. I am no expert on pick-up and I don't pretend to be one. I am just a girl with a casual fascination.

As for messaging girls:
I admit I may have come out a little to strong on the not messaging point. You can and may have to message girls to get with them, especially the super, super hot ones. However I stand by the point that messaging a girl automatically lowers your value. I stand by this point.

There are a couple of ways that I think IRL approaching is very different from online approaching that make messaging a girl lower your value more than approaching in IRL.

a. IRL approaching has a social cost. Online approaching does not.

How many dozens of guys suffer from the anxiety of approaching girls in real life? Lots. Girls are aware of this, we know that there are guys out there that want us that simply don't have the balls. Thus when a guy approaches us it shows that he has some measure of confidence. In contrast approaching online has no social cost, it's not face to face. It's incredibly easy to send a message from behind a computer screen. Lots of the messages that I have gotten from guys online seem to be from the type that I know would never come up to me in real life. Often this is betrayed by the nature of their openers, (your pretty, or wow I didn't know we could have this much in common, or I know that I'm a little old for you etc.), but even when I come across a witty one, I still am more skeptical of the opener than I would be in IRL.

b. There is stigma to being on an online site.

Around about ten messages is there always comes a point where the guy asks me why the hell I am on a dating website. Usually the conversation has been going good up until that point, witty banter etc. But they always seem baffled, they try and find out if I'm crazy, actually a man, etc. This is because often the girls online are indeed crazy/men/twenty pounds fatter/older then their profile says.

This stigma/skepticism hardly is onesided, if anything girls are only more cautious. Now you may say that this only proves that there is stigma to being online, not to messaging. But the truth is that most of the stereotypes about predators/creepers/perverts online come in the form of guys mass messaging girls looking for sex etc. And frankly most of the messages I receive, and my friends who are online say the same, are exactly that. (Admittedly few of them are registered on such sites, most of them are in relationships or find online too dangerous of a local. Ironically going to parties and getting drunk out of their minds is considered by them to be incredibly safe.)) So we stereotype, that the guys that message us are going to be creeps/not smooth because statistically that is often the case.

However statistically of the guys I message, none of them are creeps so I immediately enter the conversation feeling much more open and comfortable. Argue all you want about girls never messaging guys, but it's simply statistically untrue that females never message. In fact in a study of male vs female attractiveness on OK Cupid, there was a whole section devoted to female messaging patterns. If females never messaged or the amount they messaged was stastically insignificant I doubt that they would have devoted the time and energy to analzying data concerning their messaging patterns. ((I tried to post a link, but apparently I don't have enough posts yet.)) While females may message significantly less, the fact is they DO message. And it would be much better for you to be the one receiving than the one sending the messages.

As for women enjoying older men:

First your point about the age group of girls you fucked was that they were young. But you mentioned that they were NOT from online game. As my point pertains solely to online game I fail to see your point. Also for the guy who pulls girls from mySpace and is 36. I'd be skeptical of the quality of girl he is pulling from myspace. I'd be tempted to believe that because he's pulling younger girls the hotness quotient is lowering and the piercing, lowered self-esteem, emo quotient is rising. But I'd be happy to be proven wrong.

Not trying to sound misogynist, just that women tend to think in a non-linear, emotional fashion that really only makes sense to them. Your post was largely based on your experiences and your feelings of those experiences. Hence, chick logic.

No offense, but it was simply bad advice. I pointed out, point by point in my first reply to you, why it was such.
Your "point" implies that guys should not message these girls, lest they "lose value." Well, that's a great idea! You hear that guys? Wait around and let THEM message YOU! Brilliant.

I get what you're saying. Point taken. Although FEMININE women understand that it's a man taking the lead and doing his job by making the first move.
You're talking about the kinds of guys that sit behind their computers because they're afraid to talk to women in real life. Have you never once been opened online by a guy with any actual game though? Or maybe you did, but you're preconceived notion about guys opening you didn't allow you to see it.
I mass message girls all the time. It's the only way to get a decent number of prospects to work for real. Yes, I'm looking for sex. I don't come right out and say, "hey baby, wanna fuck?" but I also don't hide my sexuality like I'm some fucking eunoch either. Think a flirty type of dialogue that involves words like, "bad girl" and "teasing" and "spanking."

Does that make me "creepy?" I doubt any of my girlfriends would say so...
And you know that they're not creepy when you message them again, how?

And I never said that women never message men. I get messaged all the time. I like a woman that takes some initiative!
And as I said, I don't message young girls because I can't take them into the bar with me, which happens to be my favorite night spot for "dates." As far as my friend goes, I'd be happy to hook you up with his email so the two of you could exchange pics. Fair warning though, he's a LOT more of an asshole than I am.[/quote]

_________________
Johnny
www.organicseduction.com

Wait, you wouldn't want to date a PUA? That limits you to someone who's largely inept with women or a natural. I think a PUA has a unique appreciation for a good woman because he knows what it's like to pine for one, but has the confidence to move in on her. Outsiders that disregard PUA's as petty pussy hustlers don't really understand where a majority of us are coming from or what we're heading toward.

That said, wanna go out for coffee? I know a secret place in town, yadda, yadda, yadda. I doubt anyone here would want to pick you up in earnest having no idea what you look like, I'm just playing with you because it reinforces your place as a lamb at a wolf convention. I've dated tons of girls (no pun intended) with a few extra pounds. They do have great personalities, great faces. I've definitely recommended girls join a gym. I've recommended men join a gym. It helped change my life.

At this point in my life, I'm not divorced enough from the media image of what makes a desirable man. Desirable men do not pair off with big girls with dentures. A healthy guy deserves a healthy girl. I'm not even asking for the media standard of beauty, I don't appreciate going to the gym every day and make up. I do demand a girl that doesn't wheeze when I'm on her and has a face that makes me think of making babies.

You're totally guilty of chick-logic because you make up phrases like "fuck-zoned". That only exists to women because they think sex is a bartering chip and feel cheated if they don't get anything for it. Judging from your other posts, you're just not cut out to be giving advice yet. You don't really understand game or what a PUA is; usually an overly sensitive, overly analytical, overly envious guy.

Sorry I killed this post, I love talking about myself.

As you wish. Prepare to be proven wrong.

I am the guy Johnny was referring to. I am one month away from turning 38 years old. In the last 48 hours, I have had sex with one 20 year-old and one 19 year-old. I've been in the PU community for several years now on other forums, and I signed up on this forum this very night just to post in this thread to set you straight on a few things.

You're welcome.

As I have posted extensively about on other PUA forums, one of my personal specialties is having sex with legal teenagers as a man in my late thirties. I have had sex with many of them over the last few years, ages 18, 19, and 20. The vast majority of these younger girls I have met ONLINE, via MySpace and normal dating sites.

As to quality:

1. With the exception of one (where I was trying an experiment), ALL of these girls were 8's, 9's, or 9.5's on the attractiveness scale. Most of them were solid 9's. If I posted pictures of them (which I can't do for legal reasons), you would agree.

2. The majority of these girls were very intelligent, many with genius level IQ's, including one valedictorian and two who graduated high school two years early.

3. One of these girls was a semi-famous celebrity who has been on national television multiple times. If I said the name of the show she was on, you'd know the name. The 20 year-old I had sex with this very morning is studying to become a CPA. I pulled her from MySpace, and I've been fucking her since she was 18. The 19 year-old who was taking my cock on Tuesday quotes guys like Chaucer and Steinbeck. Pulled her from Plenty of Fish, an ONLINE dating site.

4. All of these girls I EMAILED FIRST. I don't think they thought I was low-value when I was ramming their tight pussies, calling them "good little girls" and making them orgasm in ways the silly teenage boys they had theretofore been with never could.

Shall I go on?

The world is not the way you view it in your own individual (rather dogmatic) brain. Just because you believe a thing does not make it so, nor does wishing or hoping for the same.

~Blackdragon

My point isn't that I wouldn't want to date a PUA. I have nothing against PUA's. If I really hated you guys would I still be here engaging you in conversation? I know that in some of my other posts and perhaps even in this one I may have come across as trying to lecture. That was not my intent.

But now that we've opened the dialogue, I'm curious exactly what is your goal. It's been made clear to me from the likes of some, Scatter, that all he really wants with online sarging is to meet and fuck a good number of women a week. Where as others seem to be using it as a tool to find relationships. And others still far somewhere in between. I recognize that there are a wide variety of wants and desires here.

My point with saying I wasn't interested in dating anyone here is that I'm not here in that capacity. I'm not looking to find a date here I'm looking to have an exchange of ideas. I don't like to mix work and play. Not that this is work, but you get the point. In short I'm here solely in the spirit of intellectual curiosity.

There is no need to put me in my place. I'm going to put out my ideas no matter how ridiculous you think they or I am. In fact, I welcome your critique of my ideas. I respect you and find you're opinion interesting and that is why I am here.

As for chick logic. Of course I am going to be explaining things emotionally, and of course I think that way when it comes to dating. And you're right most women do. My whole previous point, and part of the point of PUA is to capture women's interest on an emotional level (wow he's sexy and mysterious) , not a rational one (he got a high GPA in high school and he's teeth aren't that crooked). I thought it might be interesting to share what exactly are the emotions at work that PUA-ing is trying to influence. However just because I think and react emotionally to dating circumstances doesn't mean I can't think about my emotions rationally. Which is really what I was trying to illustrate with my first post, a rational analysis of often emotions.


As for the phrase fuck-zoned.

First question, did I ever say that sex had to be attached to something more? No I didn't. Just like theoretically a girl should be able to be just friends with a guy without the guy feeling the need to sleep with her, a girl should theoretically be able to sleep with a guy without any emotional attachments or wanting a relationship.

Let's think about it this way. There are some guys that would happy to be just friends with some girls, just like there would be some girls that would be happy to be just fuck-buddies with some guys. For them friendships and friendships with benefits can work out great.

However, often times it doesn't work out. Why? Because in the case of the guy the girl develops emotional attachment, even when he's made it clear he's not interested in a relationship, or in the case of the girl the guy develops sexual attraction even though she's made it clear she's not interested. And that's an ideal situation! Often times the girl leads the guy on by flirting, and the guy vaguely promises and hints at emotional intimacy he won't be able to provide.


As for sex as a bargaining chip..

I would turn around and ask the same question about being friend-zoned. Do guys feel like friendship is a bargaining chip and feel cheated when they don't get sex from it? Often it seems like it, with guys "freezing out" or ending friendships with girls when it becomes clear they won't get what they want, hoping that she will come begging to them for more. Not to mention the constant advice to cut ties with a girl once it becomes clear that she won't be putting out. There are some schools of thought that say that the LJBF isn't death and that you could use your friend as a pivot etc, but I wouldn't say that is the advice that I have seen in the majority.


Johnny:

as for femininity...

Some girls who are more passive may go for the guy leading, you may be right, and some girls appreciate getting hit on. But the whole point of PUA, at least my impression of it, is that hot girls are so often hit on that the goal is to make them prove their worth to you. What appeals to me about PUA is the idea of giving the girl a challenge, making her feel like she has to work for you. I think that that dynamic is exciting and good for both the guy and the girl. She gets an adventure, he gets to feel good about himself, and they both get to have sex.

To me the dichotomy of challenging the girl seems to be lost when you "pursue her". By messaging her you automatically set up the dynamic of you pursuing her instead of the other way around. Obviously this dynamic can be negated by a good opener, negs etc. But by overcome something when you can simply avoid it?

Mass messaging:

I'm not suggesting that guys hide their sexuality. Although I'd probably prefer more subdued conversation than "spanking", though if it works on other girls great! At least not until I've met you in person anyway. And I'm not even saying that guys shouldn't mass message. What I am saying is that it shouldn't LOOK like you're mass messaging. And it shouldn't look like you're trolling for sex.


BlackDragon:

That's a lot of effort just for one post. Thanks for your two cents. You must have some very good game. Props.

Now we're getting somewhere. I agree that seduction is about presenting a challenge to a woman. Flipping the script and getting her to want to pursue me instead of the other way around. In regards to online game, I do this with my profile. I've told several guys on this forum that besides good pictures, your profile wording is the money shot.

So what do I do to make women want to chase me? Simple. I screen them. By that I mean my about me section lists very specific qualities of what I'm looking for in a woman.

Instead of the boring old "boyfriend resume" that most guys are using on dating sites:

"I'm a laid back guy. I work a good job. I drive a nice car. I'm sick of being cheated on and dumped, etc..."

I use something like this:

"You should be a down to earth sweet heart. I'm not interested in drama queens or princesses with entitlement complex (you know who you are). I like girly girls. Being a tomboy is cool, and rather sexy, I might add, but please, don't try to impress me with your sports knowledge or political savvy...I've got enough guy friends to bore me with that stuff....Aren't there any real women left in this city? Impress me!"

See, women read that profile and it speaks to the natural woman inside of them. It presents a standard for the woman to live up to, thus making her feel special when I talk to her because she met my specific criteria.

Now do you see why all this talk about openers around here is so ridiculous? It's not just you that's guilty of it either...

_________________
Johnny
www.organicseduction.com

But here's the really important question: How many girls actually message you out of the blue? Or do you still need to make that first move, and your profile just closes the deal?