in what sense do you agree with manipulation then? unfortunately a guy will say what a woman wants to hear hoping it will benefit them. playing with a girls emotions for gain is wrong. but women dont exactly make life easy either if walking up to a girl and introducing myself worked there would be no need for the pickup world

_________________
life sucks and then you die! deal with it

Crazyoney2k,

I am not repeating everything that I have already said on this thread. If you want to know my opinion on manipulation, please read the entire thread before asking me to clarify.

If attractive women didn't constantly get beseiged by unwanted male attention ever time they set foot outside of their doors, there wouldn't be any need for pickup either.

so are we supposed to apologise for finding someone attractive? sadly we all judge people based on looks its sad but true! now without being perceived as a misogynist girls that are unattractive do that to themselves if they have a disgusting attitude, are overweight, dont care about their appearence. how is anyone ever going to find them attractive if they dont care about themselves why would anybody else? what is unwanted male attention sadly the human race dont have signs on their heads saying available or in a relationship, is it actually the unwanted attention you dont like or is it being approached badly because they are different things,

_________________
life sucks and then you die! deal with it

Are you really that ridiculous you want me to go source up common sense. You want a list on the phases, I read that in a book that contributed to a doctorate. Not to big a book 200 or so pages, Love Signals by David Givens. Through out the book other studies are mentioned. Watch the science of sex appeal. A solid show, it will also talk about peoples behavior modifying when told that they were being rated on an attraction scale. Those are easy enough to prove my point in courtship.

Stating the reality of courtship isn't enough? The fact that every human modifies their behavior in first interactions changes nothing in your eyes. The fact is if you are modifying your behavior for your first interaction as consistent with natural human behavior(meaning we aren't who we are) we are representing ourselves falsely. We manipulate our behavior and our appearance so that we can put up a false representation so that we appear as a more qualified mate.

Of course your argument is we don't go as far as someone such as RJ but the fact is he may give vague answers but he isn't lying. It isn't necessarily a false representation, he has a much better understanding of the human mind than most people. His manipulations are far more honest than the guy lying about his job, his car, or stories. I don't like RJ at all but your idea of false manipulation is merely your moralistic outlook. He doesn't hypnotize someone and then they have sex with him. Do you have any understanding of NLP or hypnosis?

Hypnosis never removes free will. In fact in order for you hypnotize someone you must gain their trust. If you hypnotize someone they have the option of pulling themselves out of hypnosis, you are judging something you seem to have no understanding of, that is the disappointing part.

Censuring or modifying your behavior is a misrepresentation of you. Your argument is really not an argument at all. I have an old friend that had some of the best first impressions, great first impressions but no one liked him after hanging out for another couple times. He represented himself as a far different person but as soon as he met a comfort level is behavior began to be normal for him which was obnoxious for us.

You disqualify so much information because of circumstance it is hard for me to value your argument at all. I mean seriously, how can you be you when you are everywhere when you have modify you behavior place to place(work, BF, environment, friends, etc.). Your argument is gaining more and more flaws with each and every little asterisk/exception. You are a illogical human being, I thought more of you before. You simply are not you everywhere you go and this holds true especially in courtship.

Misrepresentation of self via dishonesty/manipulation? Is not modifying your behavior so that you are perceived as different not dishonest? Is it not a manipulation of their views of you? It isn't your normal behavior therefore you are misrepresenting yourself with dishonest behavior. You are the manipulator their perception of you.

Of course we are not 2-d cut outs, yet you are the one who judges someone. We are not the ones who went on a forum and classified the individuals using a "two-dimensional" view of us. The disappointing part about all of my argument is I am using most of your statements and you are so stubborn you can't even see the argument, You refuse more importantly. You are close minded, your judgement has been set and can not be changed. Disappointing really, you will miss out on a lot of good people through out your life because of this personality trait. You choose to see the bad and classify someone for it(such as pick up, feminism, or guns since the 3 have been mentioned you have an obvious outlook on them).

I am arguing your point but it proves you wrong so you must disqualify the argument. The fact is courtship is dishonesty at it's finest. Sure I don't lie to people, but my behavior changes, discretion, body language, etc. I even dress different from place to place(not to fit in but stand out, of course there is consistency in my style). What is said to a guy and what is said to a girl are different with courtship.

Conscious effort to be you. - That's not how I understand it, that is the reality of the human behavior. You seem to think you are not human and that is fine, but don't lie to me lie to yourself. Why do you need to be conscious of your behavior if you have no need to censure it? You are making a useless effort that humans never do. You are lying and it is unfortunate.

If you are aware of you liking them because of your behavior then you modified your behavior to misrepresent yourself. Some of those include pushing your chest out and a slight more sway to accentuate your hips(making them wider than they are), probably preened your hair to bring attention to your face and yourself in general, you straightened your appearance(jewelry, shirt, pants/skirt, shoes) a form of preening, you likely gave submissive eyes, exposed your neck, turned your head down, these are all modified behaviors that people do when they like someone. Probably walked a little more spryly to appear younger as a good mate(changing your walk changes your representation of yourself, especially in courtship) These are modified behaviors. Your voice likely changed to slightly higher pitched(a misrepresentation of your sexual fertility), do you really want me to continue on this?

We all modify our behavior to put on a false representation to appear to be a healthier mate. We all hold back our opinion, or expand a little on a story to misrepresent ourselves and manipulating their views on us as a health mate.

Perhaps your poor understanding of human's mind and body has contributed to your misunderstanding of human behavior and how we choose to represent ourselves in different phases of our lives. Since the focus of this argument is courtship one of the more misleading acts humans engage in, this truly makes your ignorance unavoidably noticeable.

LOL I read your arguments and they are getting lamer and lamer. What the hell does abortion/religion have to do with anything? It is not a threat to me that you are ignorant it is actually a threat to you. Your ignorance and misunderstanding of something has caused you to go onto a foreign forum(to you) and start an argument where you have lost to several different people with the refusal to secede.

You should learn to take your own advice: You need to be conscious of what you do and why you respond the way that you in order both to know you are and to manage your reactions.

You are not even aware of your loss in this argument. Your not conscious of the fact that Courtship is a misrepresentations of yourself so that you manipulate the other persons perception of you so you seem like a better mate. That is courtship, sure some people are more honest or less honest but most men dress the way they do to get laid, women do to get positive feedback as well. When I dress to go out, I don't sit there and think wow I hope my guy friends think I look good. I think well hopefully a fly girl thinks I am fly.

Your argument is falling further and further away from our initial argument. Which is manipulation through dishonesty or misrepresentation, we all modify how we are perceived so that we can manipulate how they perceive us. Love it or hate it, avoiding showing things is dishonest, it is a manipulations of the other persons perception of us. Either you want to look at this entire world as you started in general or you want to look at the pick up world like that. You have chosen to look at just the pick up world. Your biasness will not be missed when you leave.

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Just another guy from back in the day.

Blogging again living life: http://www.Scienceofnaturalgame.com

To bad you don't agree with what you said. You have yet to modify your language. We have changed ours to fit yours. Your actions speak much louder than your words. You may agree with the statement but you certainly don't practice it.

This is ridiculous, people asked you to dumb down your text you refused to saying that you feel you shouldn't have to change how you communicate or something of that nature.

Man I am butchering you this entire thread. Kind of funny really. Even funnier I am using your arguments over and over and over.

_________________
Just another guy from back in the day.

Blogging again living life: http://www.Scienceofnaturalgame.com

Crazyoney2k,

I never asked anyone to apoligise for finding other people attractive, or for the precise reasons why they find these others to be so.

People do judge on looks and, since it is to some extent hardwired into our brains to seek out people with healty genes, I see no reason to argue against that either.

However, you are unfair in your classification of less-attractive people. Attraction, apart from our human enhancements, largely has to do with our genes, with symmetry denoting healthy ones. Genes detemine body type, not just exercise. The person I know who exercises the most and eats the healthiest is also the most overweight--go figure. Not spending a great deal of time on makeup and haircare is also not a character flaw.

For myself, I dislike both forms of being approached.

Poeticlyskuac,

You haven't actually proven anything since you have completely misunderstood my argument. You lack all subtely and finesse, both of which are necessary to actually understand what I am saying. An apprecitiaton for nuance and detail is an invalualbe skill in life, as well. Have fun with your misconception that you've actually won something here--I find that sense of humour and accomplishment to be the most laughable of all.

I have also never asked anyone to change how they use language. Since everyone on this thread is using some form of English, there really shouldn't have to be any shifting.

I couldn't care less what your opinion of me is, as should be quite apparent from what I have already said.

Have fun thinking that your opinion actually matters, though. It's an illusion that you probably find to be of great comfort and joy.

So what do you class as a "false presentation of self"? Is going to the bank and pointing out the ten times you have paid your overdraft and not mentioning the 6 times you haven't?

What about smiling to make a performance review with your line manager go smoother?

Please articulate the phrases "to some extent" and "false presentation of self", what are the mechanics involved?

Imply: Certainly it's one conclusion you could make, how many guys would be honest about the assesment if a girl turned and said "OMG you know me so well", I wonder...

This is a worthless argument, if you don't have the proper skills to communicate than this is useless.

Pleasure to meet you, enjoy your life.

_________________
Just another guy from back in the day.

Blogging again living life: http://www.Scienceofnaturalgame.com

Fin this is a "what is more good" conversation. Not really worth your time. Though she seems well educated(likely much more than me) her argumentative, communication, logical, and problem solving ability are all missing, book smart not street smart.

Melissa has a good heart but she doesn't see the world for what it is, she sees pick up as wrong. We see pick up as a part of the world where we studied behaviors and gained consistent results so that we could become better at completing the mating process, for some/most of us to find a person special for us. Pick up to her is sneaky manipulative guys who hurt girls, when people in general are just manipulative and often hurt girls. We are seeing the world for what it is, she is seeing our world as nothing like the real world.

What's funny is the guys I have met that were the most hurtful of girls were not pick up guys, but hey she sees it as bad. The few pick up guys I have met were guys who appreciated women more than those women appreciated themselves.

_________________
Just another guy from back in the day.

Blogging again living life: http://www.Scienceofnaturalgame.com

Actually Melissa has an interesting point regarding people presenting themselves as something other than what they are.

The situations seem to be very specefic and poorly defined, so it may only come around once in a blue moon, but it's worth flagging up.

I think she has gone down the wrong route by condemning PU, in fact IMO she went down the SAME wrong route as you have in attempting to unify PU into one concrete definable strategy and creed. Which judging by the diversity on this forum alone it is not.

--
I agree to a certain extent with some of her observations, but I disagree with her conclusions. I'm not so much arguing as wanting Melissa to flesh out what she is saying so that people reading it can learn something, and that Melissa can see for herself that maybe her conclusions are somewhat crude.

I think the commotion by people in this thread is already a counter argument. Melissa's statement came to many across as if PU is not the most virtuous thing on earth, and that many are manipulative robots who senselessly fuck&dump girls for fun.

Many here felt attacked, because this is what many people has worked on (trying to avoid the negative points above) for years. Members of the PU community don't want to be seen that way. The fact that this subject is sensitive, is to my opinion a sign why PU in itself isn't bad, and PUAs not worser than naturals.

I do have to say that I understand Melissa if trying to look from a female's perspective.

_________________
You WANT to make a change.
You CAN make a change.
You WILL make a change.

Ambitious to be succesfull => Shyler

Can Melissa pleas prove (s)he is who (s)he claims to be. I seriously have my doubts after reading how her replies are worded.

I like to be proven wrong so I can take this thread more seriously.

I haven't at all defined anything into a concrete, those are the steps defined through out every single pick up/courtship/hook up/etc. process. You can't avoid any of these steps they are just a regular part of a social interaction. I got it out of a book that contributed to the thesis of a PHD in anthropology. Nothing I said has been false.

I do understand her points, but she seems to condemn the process. This is the outline to courtship. It isn't as if you can go through this process and skip any of these steps. Perhaps the culmination for her is a relationship, it is for me as well but the point is from a pure science outlook which is sex.

Courtship is a process of misleading, put it this way you never fart in front of a girl on the first date right? Well since everyone farts from time to time why wouldn't you expose her to a true presentation? I understand her point but the point is we all change our behavior, we all leave out facts about ourselves. Let's face it the first date is nothing but an interview(from Van Wilder), you are there to qualify to each other as good mates.

This isn't a process I designed I don't even say oh your behavior has to be cocky, mean, funny, alpha, I don't care about any of that. I prefer to treat everyone well. Be yourself man that is how I feel. If you need to gain confidence I understand you have to do some things, but I don't believe at all you should be someone different. I was just giving the general outline of courtship a book introduced to me, the text is agreeable in every single courtship interaction I have ever seen needed those 5 steps to get to that point. They are vague but they are steps that are unavoidable in the courtship process.

The argument is literally what is more bad right now. It is more bad to manipulate your presentation in pick up, to me courtship in general is a manipulation of your presentation, you are giving people a false out look on who you are. I don't care about in pick up or without pick up you shouldn't lie, I'd say you end up with about the same amount of liars in pick up as liars in general. People are people, pick up doesn't make people bad and she is assuming it does.

So it is a what is more bad. Pick up doesn't teach people to lie courtship does, that is my point. I know guys who have nothing to do with pick up and lie.

A person is good or bad whether in pick up or not. She seems to think that once you go pick up you lose all morals and thoughts. Some people are heartless but most of us don't lose our heart. Some of us don't try to sleep around or hurt people. You seem to think we all do. My success rate isn't by the quantity of girls who like me but the quality of girls that like me, I would like one special one not 50 physically attractive women.

_________________
Just another guy from back in the day.

Blogging again living life: http://www.Scienceofnaturalgame.com

Lol forget it bro

(s)he's wayy afraid of that

As I said, it's either she's a guy or she extremely unattractive..
Id say the largest group of hot chicks could careless about shit like this because theyre approached daily. They have enough social intelligence to know "what to avoid"

Give it up

Fuze