Reo,

So far as I know, nothing that you have stated has been worthy of the title factual or objective. I'm can't ignore something that you haven't provided.

Poeticlyskuac and Fuze,

I just lost an incredible amount of respect for both of you.

Why on earth would anyone ever desire 100% complicance? It's an incredibly needy, unrealistic thing to do. You don't want a romantic partner, you want a slave. Don't kid yourself--there is no way that kind of relationship can be reciprocal.

Fuze, I hate to break it to you, but both men and women have emotions. Both women and men can and desire to be providers. This nature that you're referring to is entirely constructed. Did you know that in ancient hunter-gather societies the women were actually the providers? Yes, men hunted and got all the glory because meat was valued, but a majority of their diet was supplied by the women.

Poeticyskuac,

I dispute your assertions because you're making assumptions. As a matter of fact, he never cleaned himself up more for me, and I never dressed up more for him. Why would I? And why would he?

And so we understand words differently--that isn't wrong, nor is there any reason why I should unconditionally accept your approach. Now that I know what you're refering to, I can understand it, but that doesn't negate my point or my usage of the term.

My understanding of honesty is more nuanced than your own--that doesn't make it wrong. There is no reason why being honest need entail complete transparency. And yes, there are people who don't drink partially because of the taste. I imagine that you are correct in that it is seldom to never the only reason, but it can be a true one.

Here you go judging me again lol.. Sadd

First starters, I nor anyone else could care less about what you have respect for?

Like I said before WHO ARE YOU?

That a question I'm dying for you to answer

And could you kindly tell me where I said I wanted 100% compliance? I was merrily teaching him to set his goals an expectations above the average an norm.

LOL worst argument ever Melissa. Your killing me man. His argument is people are people. What they like to do doesn't define a person as good or bad. A person can kill with a knife, their bare hands, a stick, a rock, a wall, your argument is ridiculous those who want to kill will. Those who have intent to do things do. People who treat women bad do whether in pick up or aren't. People tend to define themselves as good or bad not their hobbies, you define people as good or bad based on their hobbies.

People do kill people, not guns. They have forever, when they had a stone, a stick, bow and arrow, sling shot, etc. People study to kill people with their bare hands. Your argument is ridiculous. Ever hear the expression "if you outlaw guns only the outlaws will have guns." People get what they want if they go after it.

_________________
Just another guy from back in the day.

Blogging again living life: http://www.Scienceofnaturalgame.com

Ok I did sound like a douche bag, and my idea was more towards relationship, which is why I slashed the relationship. It is also why I wrote a relationship before compliance. I would never do that to anyone. You seem to assume about me because I am diplomatic in my responses. I agree with people with a different outlook involved, so what.


How is hidden truth the truth?

Your assumption that neither of your behaviors was changed is illogical and your response carries emotion not truth. Again I am stating general statements about humanity that are true in every case yet you act as if you are different from humanity, this holds true in every first interaction. You seem to think it doesn't. Stop lying to me I don't appreciate. It is also the reason you have chose not to disclose the fact that all my statements are true. I have proven myself right and you have chosen not to secede, this will force you to secede so I understand.

_________________
Just another guy from back in the day.

Blogging again living life: http://www.Scienceofnaturalgame.com

Truth is truth regardless of whether or not it is revealed.

I never said that none of our behavious changed--what I did say was that neither of us made an effort to "clean up" more. Why on earth would I disclose the "fact" that all of your statements are true when, in actuality, they aren't?

Clean up can refer to your behavior as well, but hey read it as you would like. If you are saying that in your interactions with your boyfriend they didn't follow that general process you are a liar. It is what it is. You refuse to admit it and that is fine but that doesn't mean it is false.

_________________
Just another guy from back in the day.

Blogging again living life: http://www.Scienceofnaturalgame.com

Poeticlyskuac,

I make a conscious effort not to present myself as better than I am in nearly all situations. I didn't change my dress, my grooming habits, my interests, or anything else in order to either attract or please my boyfriend. When I say that behaviours change, I am referring to the simple fact that the two people involved will do things together (go out to dinner, ect.) that both people were probably not doing on their own (or, at least, not the same extent) beforehand.

I never asked to be liked, and I certainly never asked to be loved. People may either take me or leave me, but, when they do, they do it on my terms. I don't try to change in order to please others. I personally prefer rejection rather than pretend to be something that I am not. Why on earth would I want to hang out with people who would reject me if they actually knew me, anyway?

I also make no effort to hide my flaws at the beginning of relationships. While it is true that some things simply take time to draw out (we all have bad days or get stressed, but that may not happen right away), I don't change my behaviour in order to hide.

That is all that I'm referring to.

The most effective way to manipulate someone is to break down their autonomy by reducing their sleep and diet to induce a poor functioning of critical thinking skills. Subjecting them to a mixture of high stress repetitive activities and periods of solitary boredom that bring on a state of easy suggestibility that could be mistaken for a euphoric discovery. Tell the person that not following what you say is immoral, dis-respectful and shameful, and that any thought about what's best for themselves is selfish and that any thoughts they have about wanting their own desires is just ego getting in the way of a higher purpose.

Remove the person from their home enviroment and surround them with people who tell them what to think and act as if the motive you are trying to install is perfectly normal and correct, encourage this person to cut off ties with all family members and friends who could dissent.

-----

Melissa, I don't think you know the first thing about psychological manipulation.

My arguement is a guns don't kill people argument. If you want to make that analogy then try this.

Psychological manipulation is a gun that ruins lives, PU even if it were manipulation would be a childs waterpistol.

----
As a side note: Is he directly saying that he has a deep insight into her personality, or is he just making a cold read to help conversation allong and to improve bonding?

What precisely is wrong with making someone feel an emotion, granted their are bad emotions to make someone feel, but plenty of girls in my life have known how to make me horny, hurray them. That's what I want in a girl, a girl who can make me horny. Similarly a girls ideal partner is a man who knows how to make them horny.

Really? So u mean to say you behave in a better way than 99.9% of humans in the western world.
In simply making a statement like that u trying to make out u are better than other people who do that (which is pretty much everyone btw).

And I haven't replies to ur comment saying you are not wrong, because you are. No matter what you say you cannot be 100% sure it wasn't just coincidence. Please don't try to make out you know better than plain facts - it just makes you look silly :/

This thread makes me lol.

To the original point. PUA is as moral or immoral as you make it.
Do some PUA's lie to get women in bed? Yup.
Do some non PUAs lie to get women in bed? Yup.

The boyfriend thing is a choice, PUA or not you simply weigh a few factors in making the decision to pursue or not pursue a girl with a boyfriend. costs/outcomes/likelyhood. Is a PUA more likely to go after women with boyfriends? Probably given the fact he will often have a higher likelyhood of a positive outcome in the situation, it makes sense.

To the OP. Make your own choices, its your moral compass that matters, not mine or anyone elses on this forum. Think about your actions and consequences and decide for yourself.

To Mel:

Looks like you've created a monster in this thread lol. I would like to pose a question to you. You certainly seem to have a strong bias against PUA's and it would seem the basis for this is because they know how to effectively get what the want in the relationship/dating/sexual realm (or in theory they do lol). This begs the question, what is your opinion of naturals?

LOL when we make conscious efforts we are changing ourselves. That is the irony of the statement. A good example is CPR, if you are certified in CPR you are not allowed to tell someone you are observing their breathing patterns, you tell them you are checking their vitals because they change their breathing behavior because you mentioned it.

There have also been studies where they were told that they were being rated on the attraction of their walk. Both men and women modified their walk to have more swagger to accentuate their sexual parts, women's hips(their ass and chest sway with it), mens shoulders and arms. It isn't something we can avoid and yet her conscious effort means that she has modified. You can only stabilize or normalize to your own behavior if you are not conscious of it. She basically admitted I was right and yet she doesn't see it that way.

Being conscious of your behavior is modifying it. She is so stubborn though she says oh I make an effort to not change my behavior, when I am being myself there is not conscious effort, there is me and my thoughts but no conscious effort. Normally that means I am laughing, smiling, and dancing, being me if I am conscious of my effort isn't being me at all.

I modify my behavior all the time each environment requires a different behavior. I work in a customer service environment, there are certain people who become more comfortable when you cuss and others less. Some men prefer to be called sir, some dude. Some women prefer to be called miss and not Mam. The most effective communicators and charismatic personalities modify themselves to their personnel/environment, changes include language(diction), body language, attire, conversation topic, etc. You don't go to a car convention and talk about dolls you talk about cars.

LOL Conscious effort to not change your behavior, that is irony at it's finest. You are not at all conscious of your behavior if you have no need to modify it.

_________________
Just another guy from back in the day.

Blogging again living life: http://www.Scienceofnaturalgame.com

I know you don't want to admit it, but what part of my statement about you and your boyfriends courtship process is false outside of you not changing your behavior through conscious effort lol, what part of those 5 steps have you skipped?

You didn't get each other's attention?

You didn't recognize each other?

You didn't talk to each other, asking about each other and trying find out whether this person would make a good mate? Your mindset may have been bf, casual, future spouse, etc. but the fact is you qualified him as a mate in some form or manner during your social interaction, hell that might even just have been eye contact(eye games, body language). Your approval may have been purely his physical appearance and he ended up being cool.

At some point you guys touched, whether that be a shoulder or hand or arm or whatever. Did you guys not touch? Do you guys stare at each other and keep your space never touching?

Than at some point sex came about or it hasn't and the courtship process is on going where he is still qualifying as your mate. Maybe you guys haven't had sex, it truly is none of my business but none of those steps can be skipped. So this question I will not ask.

You are full of shit just admit it and we can move on. Men jump through hoops and your boyfriend certainly put a first impression behavior on for a little bit. Maybe you haven't been dating long enough for him to get fully comfortable with you and show you some of his behavior else where. I am not at all saying your boyfriend isn't a cool guy, merely that you are lying to yourself if you don't think he changing a even just a little bit for you when he was qualifying.

_________________
Just another guy from back in the day.

Blogging again living life: http://www.Scienceofnaturalgame.com

Fin,

Of course I am aware of the extreme principles of manipulation that you're talking about. If you read any psychological liteature, anything about a cult, or even a great deal of fiction (think 1984), such things are obvious. That, however, is not what I'm talking about. I'm not taking about the more extreme versions, but the lower-level day-to-day stuff that people are most likely to encounter. You aren't actually responding to my argument.

"As a side note: Is he directly saying that he has a deep insight into her personality, or is he just making a cold read to help conversation allong and to improve bonding?"

Of course he never directly stated it, the last part of your sentance, though, is what I'm arguing against. He's facilitating bonding based upon a falsehood and a misrepresentation of self. Making someone feel an emotion isn't a bad thing in and of itself--it depends upon your motives, the other person's motives, whether or not there is informed consent on the part of both parties, and on the contents of the emotion being created. For the RJ video, the first, third and fourth elements are a problem.

Fuze,

I don't need to be some all-powerful God in order to condemn behaviour that I disagree with or hold to be dishonest (in a misrepresentation of self manner).

No matter where you set your goals, you should never set them above a level that you would would actually like to attain. It's counter-productive to do so.