I agree with the above poster 95%

Dude

Sex is in fact far from the last step, it's about 65% there tho. Set you expectations higher.

The last step is when you gain 100% compliance for a women. For example if you tell a women to cut herself an she does it. A better example is pimps, they get women to sell themselves an give them a larger portion of the money.

Not that you should ever take advantage of a women who you get to 100% compliance. Just realize she does the things she does for you because she loves you. An you treat her with respect an love in return.

And I'm not saying ( before Melissa kills me) you should EVER ask a women to cut her self or become your street hoe; you should just know that she would be willing to of you told her to. The same you know that your best friends would die for you if it came down to it. Vice versa


Higher expectations bro

Everyone has sex, how many get 100% compliance?

Fuze

Isn't RJ lookng to instill a feeling? I doubt what he is doing can really be called manipulation or a dishonest representation of himself. per say.

I do have issues with using "generic read" to give the impression you know someone, overall apart from showing a high level of perception they don't work half as well as strong eye contact, which is much more effective in creating a mutual feeling of kinship or whatever.

----

With the RJ video, it seems more like a game to him, I spent the best part of a year in long distance relationship with a member of this forum and I remember during the early stages we constantly played mind games with each-other, tried to make each other anticipate calls, influence eachothers feelings and pretend that we could read into each-others souls. It was all just fun to us, and we sued to read over old SPAM and msn transcripts and analyse each-others game and discuss our strategies.

Admittedly, this is a rather surreal case and I'm not certain how well it can genralise becuase that situation your dealing with two very romanticaly self confident people, and I don't know how many day to day people can claim they are in that state of mind.

So it's worth thinking about the degress of tounge in cheek that people give one antoher during courtship and the give and take that is expected.

Outside of that, when it comes to negs, they haven't been a big part of modern PU for a long while, try making a thread saying that the neg shoudl be in your top 5 tools and see how far you get with that.

Regardless, the neg doesn't really work in the way that most people think it does, most negs will not make her more attractive or more easy. Negs most of the time in field work despite their insult, not because of it. The only positive effect a neg has is adding confusion when you don't want someone to know your motives. (Which is rather silly)

Again you keep using the word manipulation without really bothering about what is meant with that.

Psychological manipulation to remove or truly hinder consent is the kind of thing you see in cults, and it takes weeks of diet control, meditation/chanting excersises, indoctranation and a removal of that person from their normal envifroment to work.

Practically speaking, if you were to take actual mind manipulation techniques into PU it would horribly in-effecitve as you would need huge amounts of time and money to set up those techniques.

PU strategies aren't even close to the potency required for them to be deemed psychological manipulation, they don't even form the same function as psychological manipulation.

Edit: You do realsie PU is a system don't you? That their is very little consensus on what good PU actually "is" and what will work.

Worth thinking about those sort of things when whitewashing a subject which is so broad.

Melissa is a man!

Just read her replies it sounds like an argument a 14-16 yearold boy would make for his own amusement if I am wrong prove it.

Melissa, if people are misunderstanding you then explain better.
Maybe, use, less, commas.

Don't get me wrong, I love people who have good command of the English language. However, it is simply foolish to take the attitude of not adapting how you communicate to help your audience understand you.
It would hardly be helpful if your doctor used the technical terms for everything when explaining things to you, because unsurprisingly, that would prevent proper communication between you and cause misunderstandings that simply waste time.

Just keep in mind; It is not the audiences' job to understand the speaker, its the speakers job to help the audience understand.

We all completely understand that you are able to construct sentences in a very intellectual manner, but it simply comes across as a way you protect yourself from being wrong by masking any points people make against you as "they don't understand".
You are flat out wrong. YOU CANNOT KNOW FOR CERTAIN. This is not a matter for debate, you flat out cannot know 100%. Nothing is 100% certain.
You simply have a theory, based on personal experience (which, might I add is a terrible form of evidence for anything) that these men used PU. I have seen countless guys use things that I could categorise as a PU technique who I am 99% sure haven't read any form of PU. Hell, I can think of an example where my friends younger brother (12) was freezing out a girl who said something mean to him followed by a DHV and then kino. Blatantly he must be a PUA
But you see, you ARE making assumptions about all of us, just as we are all making assumptions about you. Don't get all moral and try to make out you don't judge people. You do. Even in this thread you are claiming to judge PUA's.
Now, that instantly means you are judging all of us to some degree as we all on a PUA forum learning about PU.
You also judge people who simply walk past you in the street, constantly. You might not even notice it, but you do. They might be incorrect judgements that you are happy to forget once youg et to know the person, but ultimately you judge people constantly exactly the same as every other homosapien does on this planet.
This is further proof of YOUR inability to adapt your style of communication to meet that of your audience. There is nothing superior in the way you speak if nobody understands you. It is also further proof of you ASSUMING people don't understand you.
There is something you are completely missing. PUA is not any different from how people NORMALLY are.
This wasn't a case of someone, somewhere in their mum's basement suddenly discovered the formula to a magic potion that made women attracted to him.
PU is all worked out from natural behaviour - people observe behaviour, note its effect and then try it themselves. Then, once a pattern of successful attractive behaviour has been document - they write a book explaining it all.
DHV, Freeze out, Push/Pull, Cocky & Funny, Opinion Openers etc etc are nothing more than marketing names for things people have been doing for years and years.
A great example of this is so called social proof. Someone noticed that a guy with lots of hot women around him attracted other hot women. He then went out and befriend some hot women and tried it. Noticed it worked. Then wrote a book. The thing is, "go get some hot friends and take them out clubbing and other hot people will come and be with you and you will have a good time and get lots of sex which is good because its what you want in the first place and then you have more hot people around you cos you attracted them with the hot people you took with you to the club so you get even more hot people the next time" isn't as catchy as "social proof". Unsurprisingly, everyone who went though high school knows that the popular/pretty group always hooks up with other popular/pretty people (normally, exceptions apply).
Melissa, I hate to break this to you. But you are NOT so interesting that the initial thoughts your BF had when he very first saw you was "I really hope I can spend the rest of my life with that woman" (in terms of a sexual relationship, not just a friendship). As with every other heterosexual male on this planet - he saw a woman he was attracted to and wanted to have sex with her.
In my opinion, sex IS THE ENTIRE POINT OF A MALE - FEMALE RELATIONSHIP as opposed to male female friendship.
I am not denying that "love" is a strong emotional connection - I "love" my girlfriend. When I first met her though, I wanted to fuck her. The emotional connect is something that grows as you get to know someone - if you are not sexually attracted to them at least a little you will will become friends, NOT bf/gf - no matter how much you "love" them. Obviously being in "love" can only improve the relationship and makes you have a bond with the other person you would never experience with just casual sex - but the fact still remains that without the sexual component it is simply a friendship and not a relationship.
The emotional connection to someone ALWAYS comes after the physical. If you don't believe me - go put on 300 pounds, shave your head, don't wash, generally make yourself as unattractive as possible and then try and get guys sexually interested in you.

what if there was no pick up community? the lonely would be lonelier, and i dont just mean the introverted guys either. since the consensus is really hot girls dont get hit on they would be lonely too. so what does leave? the jocks and ugly girls! i know its wrong to judge purely on looks but sadly we all do, we do on clothing, cars, jewellery and so on! i joined because i wanted to attract hot women! not because i wanted to settle for mediocre!

_________________
life sucks and then you die! deal with it

No Melissa you don't get it.... My Facts presented are independent of your opinionated arguement. And the facts apply to you and your current relationship which was formed through manipulation. You can't argue against the facts I presented to you you're just choosing to ignore them.

A teacher tells two students to write a mathematical formula where the answer must equal 4.

student 1 writes: 2+2=4
student 2 writes: 6-2= 4

Your own opinion make you mad about the fact one student subtracted two numbers instead of adding 2 numbers. The fact remains both answers are correct.

Whether you were kicked down the stairs or pushed down the stairs. Fact remains you still fell down those stairs.

_________________
Friendzone 1-vt51424.html?postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0

You said that better than I had in my previous post. Nice job mandals ^_^

I hope it hits home this time around.


Evidently, Melissa as a women is likey to be more emotional over the subject of PU an not as rational as many of us are trying to win her over to our sides; through rational an logical arguments.

Simply won't do any good

We're merly faning the fire, establishing her belief stronger an stronger with every post.


Do you honestly believe that someone on the fourm is going to write A post that will make melissa say " wow guys, I hath been entirely incorrect amongst my fellow fourm members. In fact, I sincerely apologize for every ranting post I hath made prior to this one." ?

Idk about you, but I don't see that coming in a million years. She's firm in her belief an it seems only another life experience to determine other wise is going to change how she feels. Shes going to eat her words.. We all do.

In the meantime our arguments will only make sense to us.

I'm not saying give up, just try an understand.

This post has 8 pages of post 90% of them are directed at Melisssa an I'm sure she's enjoying all the attention.

Unless Jesus, or any super natural force, decides to post on this fourm I doubt she will change her views.

She's a women, we are men. We are just as different psychologically as we are physically.

Just some Food 4 Thought

Fuze

Poeticlyskuac,

Perhaps I should have been more explicit about my definition of honesty. A while back, I wrote a post that might be helpful in this regard: honesty-vs-full-disclosure-vt76997.html. Honesty does not usually require one to reveal everything about one's knoweldge/motives/intentions/whatever. In most circumstances, one is usually ill-advised to disoclse everything in the name of honesty. That's not what I'm arguing for. There are ways to avoid full disclosure while still being honest--ie. not misrepresenting the self.

For instance, as would probably suprise none of you, I typically don't have a single motive informing whatever action I choose to undertake. There are multiple levels of truth--ie. while everything in this category is true, some truths are more revealing than others. Example: Person A doesn't drink alcohol both because they've had a a few sips and don't like the taste, and because his/her parents were abusive, raging alcoholics. Person A is being entirely honest by saying that he/she doesn't drink because of the taste rather than going into both reasons. This person is also not being manipulative by electing not to disclose both motives.

That is all that I'm arguing for--not full disclosure, but honest--ie. the revealing of things about oneself that are true and that are not being used to present a false image of the individual.

Courtship doesn't have to be about false presentation. The type of honesty that I'm discussing above is actually the most advisable course of action in any case. Fair enough that people don't lay down a laundry list of all of their flaws at the beginning of the relationship (difficult to do in any case because different people have different understandings of exactly what constitutes a flaw). But presenting yourself as the opposite of what you actually are is a failing strategy because the truth typically does come out.

I'm also not arguing against evaluating other people based on whatever criteria you deem worthwhile--this is important, and it's important that people also understand what they want in a partner, particularly when you're talking long term. All that I'm arguing against is deliberately misrepresenting yourself. It's also foolish to portray yourself as either better or worse than you actually are, because, as already discusse, charades are extremely difficult to maintain long term. Typically, when they are able to last, there is complicity on the part of the person that is being fooled.

I'd also advise you to give up analysing how my boyfriend and I got together. Beyond the basic premise of how relationships form, you're shooting in the dark, and not coming off particularly accurately for it.

Depending on how you define your goals, sex is also not necessarily the culmination of a series of this type of interactions. I hesitate to use the term courtship because it has an entirely different meaning--courtship is not dating, nor is it linked to a fwb type situation. Courtship is a more traditional form of "dating" where the stated goal is marriage. Typically, couples who court refrain from sexual intercourse until after marriage, and often, at least traditionally, familial support is sought before the courtship beings.

Fuze,

Full compliance is something that no one should ever seek from anyone else. It's not healthy for anyone, neither the giver nor the one who recieves it. It should never be considered a goal.

Your use of pimps as an example is also slightly misguided. There's a lot more abuse, both emotional and physical, as well as the kind of manipulation that I believe you were talking about earlier.

And I just love how, at some point, someone invariably starts accusing me of being overly emotional. It seems that unless I'm willing to roll over and play dead, at some point I get condemend for it. Of course, the irony here is that women accuse me of the exact opposite--ie. being too rational and cold. I can only conclude that such accustations are the resort of those who, unable to understand or appreciate why I don't share their beliefs, chose this as a refuge because their arguments aren't good enough to fully convince me.

Hobbit in particular has already gotten me to expand my view slightly but apparently that isn't good enough. Most of you aren't actually addressing my argument. You address what you think my argument is, but you're missing the mark by a wide margin. Of course you're not convincing me--you're telling me that the breeze today is pleasant when I've asked whether or not the sun is out.

Hobbit,

Two points. First, as I've already stated, that's a general policy with an exception clause. It doesn't mean that I think all PUAs are bad people. Similarly, I also won't date anyone who does illegal drugs. I don't want to be associated with that kind of culture, and at a certain point it is possible that I might become legally liable for their decisions. I know that all drug users aren't bad people. but not being a bad person does not provide you an automatice Free Date with Melissa card.

It is my right to chose who and what I would like to date. I realize there are some guys who study PU that would be compatible with me but they don't appear to be in the majority. I am suspicious of other people's motives, particularly in this type of interaction, until it has been proven that I don't need to be. That isn't limited to PUAs, either.

Melissa

If you were reading my post in context, you would know that neither of them were directed to you in anyway. I was talking to my fellow malicious manipulators.

An yes you do have a masculine cover, but that does not take away from the fact that it is in your nature to be emotional. Just as it's in a mans nature to provide.

Have there been any great women who had logically views? Surely. Just as there are emotional men out there.

---

And don't you dare tell me what an what not I should set as a goal. Who are you? Leme know if you plan on becoming Pope Melisa Feminist the first anytime soon.

Is it anymore wrong to spit on someone than to smack them or any more good to buy someone a gift than to give them a hug?

You are no one to judge in anyway.

Stop it.

You are no better than any pua on this fourm or anyone on this planet for that matter. We both consist of light an dark/ good an evil. Your goods no greater than mine an your bad is no worse than mine. However you are in fact more like us Pua's because you are studying amongst an reading our material.

Your subconcious can't help but carry out some of what you read wether you realize it or not... So keep reading an watch yourself become more PUA than w/e else it is that you are =]

Goodluck

Fin,

The most effective way to manipulate, whether by misrepresentation or some other method, is to create feelings. He's presenting himself as someoen who has a deep understanding of her innermost psyche when he's really no more than a quack with a couple of mind tricks. How is that not manipulative (in a misrepresentation of self sense)?

Your defense that PU is a system makes me think of the oft-cited "Guns don't kill, people kill people." While the gun may only be a tool, that doesn't mean that the governement is wrong in trying to regulate becuase of the frequency with which that tool is used for illegal purposes that harm others. Just something to think about.

Madals,

It is not solely the responsiblity of the speaker to ensure that his or her words are understood. Understanding is a reciprocal relationship that requires the investment and effort of both parties.

And no, I am not flat out wrong because you don't know what I'm refering to. Some things, methods of speaking, ect., can be either learned or natural. Scripted techniques (more in line with Mystery method) are learned.

While I agree with what you say, we are talking about the general interaction through courtship which to me is just to get sex. Anything after that is relationship/compliance, which is fine but the fact is the direct roll of courtship is sex. Everything else is a bonus.

Courtship to me has five phases- Attention, recognition, interaction, touch, and sex. That is it, everything else is a relationship/compliance or friendship.

_________________
Just another guy from back in the day.

Blogging again living life: http://www.Scienceofnaturalgame.com

Your opinion of honesty is arguable. Honesty is the truth, the truth is not hidden. You seem to see them as different, I do not. You are saying not to be completely honest and that it is not dishonest? How is it honest to avoid the answer? You are trying to bend the truth to hit your guidelines. Honesty is forward it is the truth. If you are avoiding you may not be lying but you are being dishonest.


It is being dishonest to not state that you don't drink because for personal reasons. It is being honest that he doesn't like the taste but if you think that anyone has those two motives and weighs taste heavier than personal experiences with the negative effect of alcohol. The truth is the person doesn't drink because of beliefs not taste. There is always a type of drink that tastes good to everyone. It is a lie and we all know it. I would easily be able to probe that out. Of course you don't believe it but my ability to communicate and making people comfortable has given me the ability to have people talk to me, because I am trustworthy and they know it won't go past me.


If you think that courtship isn't about false presentation you are absolutely fooling yourself and this argument has ended due to your misunderstanding of the courtship process. Do you think the first time you hung out with your boyfriend he didn't clean himself up a little more than he does now for you? Did you pay more attention to your appearance when you realized your attraction? Were you conscious of your statements or actions because of your attraction(self-conscious)? I find it hard to believe you or him let alone you and him didn't put your first impressions behavior on around each other. I find it hard to believe he didn't just say "wow I like you we should have sex", which is a true presentation of his intentions which really are a part of him. After all it is our actions and intentions that truly show us the type of person we are.


Sex may not be the culmination of the interaction but in the concept of anthropological courtship, it is. This a pure science and logic out look. You are looking at your ultimate goal, stop centering yourself on the argument. You seem to think that you are different than humanity this is untrue. Stop with your self centered argument and you will realize everything I am saying is true.


DON'T LIE TO ME! You and you boyfriend had to have gone through these steps to start dating. Unless that is you are not having sex with him and you are a virgin trying to protect your V card. This isn't some mythical concept this is courtship, there are definitive steps that you can not avoid. You are looking at it from a dating stand point, I have taken a pure science approach. This isn't an analysis of how you got together with your boyfriend, this is an analysis of courtship, the act of hooking up, picking up, etc., this is what happens when anyone gets together. They are unavoidable steps.


Once again you have given a word a different value than I have. Courting a women is not what I am talking about. I am talking about th anthropological study of courtship. You are talking about dating. During dating the same thing happens perhaps it takes a few dates but the steps through courtship are the same, recognition, attention, interaction, touch, and finally sex. You seem unable to separate emotion from this these circumstances, they are not singular to you, stop centering yourself on this.

_________________
Just another guy from back in the day.

Blogging again living life: http://www.Scienceofnaturalgame.com