Tangent stuff from k-loc's thread (decide new title)



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PostPosted: Thu Oct 21, 2010 7:46 am 
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Honestly I am mostly annoyed with the pregnancy issue because it is the excuse I have been dealing with lately. Apologizing for another employees actions due to her pregnancy(by choice) is unfair to everyone around. I am sorry she has been like this because she is pregnant, how many times can you say that before it is not ok?

Have you never been slightly more agitated due to your cycle in effect snapping at someone? I find it hard to believe your the only women in the thousands I have met through my work and personal life that doesn't act rude when it is that time of the month once in a while. I have had the nicest women and I do mean the nicest be mean to me. One women was so nice she came back and cried because she treated me like such. I have never met a women who didn't treat other bad at one point or another because of it. I deal with at least 1500 women every week at my work and I have been treated bad several times. Due to their womanly problems. Why are my real life(factual for me) experiences discounted? Are you the official judge does you being there through out my life make it factual for you? Damn guessed you missed it.

Men are d-bags too, in fact I have to talk to men far more often than women when it is because of a big problem. Today a male customer threatened another employee and Management(ME :( unfortunately) had to escort him out. Men create far more big issues than women hands down for me.

I love female managers far more than male managers when they are good, they are my favorite. I learned the most about management from hard working women. I mentioned how maybe it is the wrong women trying out for the positions, most of the good moms I have met would make great managers but these women choose to manage their family first and foremost. After all the best managers I knew were great mothers, while the worse were childless.A lot of women choose their family over a time consuming stressful managing position(thought they may work full time), it is far better to love their family than hate their job and that is awesome.

What is funny is I agree with everything you say, I just hate the concept of biasness often accompanying feminism. Some of the ideals are great and some are very slanted. You are quite the logical girl and though my opinion of you may not matter I am very impressed by you as I have stated through out a few of my posts. I think you are a warmhearted good person, your assumption of how I see you may not be correct. You sound like a brilliant young women.

Women and men developed different traits for different reasons. Men are better at somethings and women at others. We agree.

I said some very biased points, but they were points that are true and slant in favor of women. They are points that you discounted. How can you discount things? And promote others? Why is one point more important than another? I hope after all this you realize I am really just stringing this argument along. I agree with pretty much everything you say but I let you know that there are exceptions to every point you make. Basically being nit picky so that you broaden your view rather than ask some of us who have done so to do something you have not. I am sure you will come up with something clever but you should realize we agree on almost all points and we are really arguing over nothing.

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 22, 2010 12:41 am 
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First off, I didn’t discount your points, I’ve simply already accounted for them in a format other than the one you requested. I argue from a standpoint of general principles (equal pay for equal work, the nature of stereotypes, ect.) rather than specific examples for reasons of efficacy and effectiveness. Even when I use examples, their purpose is to support a general principle that I’m endorsing rather than to have them stand alone. In terms of time constraints, it’s far more efficient to develop a general principle that applies to almost all circumstances rather than deal with each one individually. Even if you know that you’re going to have to come up with exceptions in certain cases, you’re still better off developing a general principle/rule and then deciding when to deviate from it rather than begin from the specific applications and work towards the general rule. In terms of dealing with individual instances rather than a general principle, you also have the problem where your actions in similar circumstances can actually contradict one another in terms of the general principle that they endorse or further.

And not all of your biased points are accurate—the courts, for instance. It’s too myopic to say that there is a general bias towards either men or women; one must consider specific types of laws and cases. In some instances, the bias is in women’s favour, in others, it’s in men’s favour. You weaken your own argument when you don’t account for this. As has already been mentioned, rape convictions are appalling in comparison to rape charges. In court, it’s still considered evidence when the woman was wearing something revealing. How exactly is wearing a short skirt tantamount to an invitation for rape? I don’t care if she’s stoned out of her mind and walking around a frat house naked—there is never an excuse for one to rape. That goes for both genders and all instances when force is involved, or when one is unable to consent (due to alcohol, drugs, ect.) I’m not going to address issues of statutory rape in detail here—some are highly problematic (the thirty year old grooming a thirteen year old for sex), while others are far more ambiguous (the eighteen year-old having sex with his long-time and sixteen year-old girlfriend, for instance). For the moment, I’m just going to say that in instances of statutory rape you need to pay a lot more attention to the details surrounding it as well as the act itself.

Fathers can take sole custody of their children when the mother relinquishes her parental rights. (The same holds true for women.)

There is a stereotype that men should pay for dinner—that doesn’t mean that they have to adhere to it, or that every woman expects them to. I’ve already said that there are damaging stereotypes that apply to both genders that should be changed. I, however, have already picked my battle. It is unrealistic to expect every person to combat every injustice or problem in society. Picture society as an individual that has just been in a massive car wreck and has multiple injuries—a fractured forearm, a punctured lung, a fractured skull and bleeding in the brain, ect. This individual isn’t fixed by a team that consists solely of one kind of doctor—rather, the team that will save this person’s life is comprised of specialists that are primarily in charge of taking care of individual organs, systems, or wounds. Just as a multiple forms of doctors (eye doctors, cardiologists, ect.) are necessary to keep people healthy, society needs more than one form of social movement directed at solving one particular problem in order to progress and thrive. Despite the fact that problems seldom occur in isolation, you need people who specialize in different areas. The time has passed when individuals could become experts in all necessary fields—humanity simply possess too much knowledge and too much technology for this to be feasible.

The extra bathroom breaks for women are pregnant is tough, because you’re right, women have chosen to be pregnant. Concessions that they are granted are due less to their gender and more to the fact that they’re pregnant. Men can’t get pregnant but, if they could, they would also need extra bathroom breaks. If you want extra bathroom breaks for yourself, take it up with deity, if you subscribe to any religion. This is when the ardent feminists are going to disown me (again), but the best that I can compare it to is a disability. The growing foetus places a great deal of pressure on the bladder—she’s just going to have to go more often. Yes, it is by choice, and pregnancy itself is not a disability. Going off of the comparison, however, companies don’t discriminate in applying their disability benefits as to whether the person him/herself was complicit in the development of the disability. Smokers still get insurance, people who drive still get disability payments when they get into an accident. The culpability or agency of the relevant agent is not a generally a determining factor in the company’s policy. People get allowances for health reasons, or are able to take work off all the time for health reasons. Why should pregnancy be any different?

Personal experience is always subjective and cannot become fact without being properly tested and verified. I don’t care how strongly you—or anyone else, and I include myself in this measure—believe it to be, just because you’ve lived it doesn’t make it fact. (Here I’m talking about statements such as “Women make bad managers because of x,” “Black people are lazy because of y,” ect. If you’ve been tortured, or even walked down the street, it is fact that the incident happened because you actually did it or it was actually done to you.) In saying that all women react to their menstrual cycles in the same way, you’re essentially—ie. saying that this set of behaviours is constitutive of some overall character or ethos that is an inherent part of being a woman. That is false. I’m not denying that there are inherent differences between men and women—the muscle fibres, for one, or the fact that women can bear children and men cannot. I am simply denying that social constructs can be considered in this innate category. Some women do get snappy during their periods, or just before, while others do not. It is biological fact that most women, unless pregnant, somehow incapacitated (anorexics, for instance, who drop below a certain body weight), too young, too old, or on some sort of hormonal birth control will bleed once a month when their uteruses shed the blood lining that had been prepared for a nonexistent or non-viable fetus. It is not, however, biological fact that women will respond to the hormonal fluctuations that this causes in any particular way.

In regards of whether of not I have expanded my argument in the way that I either ask or force others to, there isn’t much more that I could actually expand unless you want me to adhere to the position that women are never discriminated against or disadvantaged by their gender (both of which have been disproven by numerous studies). That list that I provided above was incredibly balanced, particularly given some of what you can compare it to. Yes, I have chosen to focus on women's rather than men's rights. You may fault me on that premise, although given the importance of having a multiplicy of movements and efforts to improve conditions in society I would find such a charge to be erronous and misguided. I basically asserted that men and women should be treated equally and that stereotypes that limit both genders are wrong. How on earth am I supposed to expand on that?


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 22, 2010 10:50 pm 
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The only things I have to say. Is it is a general human response to be snappy when you are in pain. It isn't male or female. Someone who is in pain(emotional or physical) tends to punish those around them, it is never personal just a human response. My Dad has been sick lately and my Mom gets treated bad because of it. As a matter of fact I got treated bad by my sister because it is that time of the month. My sister is my best friend and roommate and she treats me bad and is snappy and I am one of the most important people to her. I understand that it is her pain she is upset about that is why I don't take it personally most of the time but sometimes after a long day it is a pain to try and play the forgive and forget card.

I have nothing against the concept of pregnancy. I think child birth a beautiful thing. My sister wants to be oby gyn so she can deliver babies, she showed how beautiful it is(not by seeing it). My problem is the inability of these young women to consciously control themselves and their attitudes during pregnancy. If you can't control yourself than you shouldn't be working in a people environment. I have worked with some women that were fantastic pregnant and others who were terrible. It is person to person undoubtedly, that said the two at my work were terrible pre-pregnancy now it is just a pain. Pregnancy should never be an excuse, that is my problem with it.

I am good with the bathroom break sometimes but other times it is difficult. When you are balancing a staff of 10 people's breaks(everyone comes in at different times), money, any problems, plus the general running a store that sees 10000 people a week it is ridiculous to be able to give out extra breaks. I am telling you that I understand the needs pregnant women has, I know she needs to sit down, use the bathroom more often, etc. but these special circumstances put a lot of pressure on things. I already have to deal with so much that these put some serious stress on me when I have tons of other problems to deal with. Disability is unfortunately a perfect word for them. Sorry more like I am venting now.

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 27, 2010 1:23 am 
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Both men and women have gender-specific health problems/issues/concens in addition to the maladities that they share. Women can't get either prostate or testicular cancer, while men can't get either uterine or ovarian cancer. Men also can't get pregant, but that doesn't mean that any special SPAM (more bathroom breaks, maternity leave--in this case defined as taken while pregnant, ect) afforded to pregnant women as a result of their pregnancy is somehow unfair to men. Just as it isn't an injustice that men get special accomodations if they get testicular cancer, it isn't an injusitce if women get special accomodations as a result of being pregnant.


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