Don't over-complicate things



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PostPosted: Tue Apr 22, 2008 12:35 pm 
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A problem I see among many people who have embarked on personal development journey - in whichever are of their life they choose improve - is that in becoming fully conscious of the aspects within that area (PUA for example) the trend is that most will tend to over-complicate the whole situation.

This idea applies to many different forms of personal development, but I will further explain it in terms of becoming successful with women.

In other words, by dedicating so much attention and energy to learning how to be successful with women, we cloud the issue with over-rationalization and too much thought. The side effects of this include nervousness/anxiety, going down the wrong path (usually as result of second guessing yourself), loss of intuition, dedicating too much thought to something that isn't complicated, wasting your time, and so on.

Contrary to what most guru's in the community would have you believe, there is no right way - there is a general wrong way - but in reality there is no right way to do things. Only a ball-park figure of what works, but for the most part this is a rather ambiguous thing outlined only lightly by a medley of tested social theories, attitude, situational factors, and accepted/unique patterns of behavior - among other things. With this in mind, you should feel liberated to take that playbook you've been clutching onto and studying endless and chuck it the fuck out the window.

I can say this, because I've seen both ends of the spectrum, extensively. Before discovering the PUA community, I had tremendous success with women from a very early age. Once I discovered the community I re-learned everything in depth, and became completely conscious of what I was doing. I strayed away from routines and methods, but I understood the theory behind it all and applied it to my life. Soon, I noticed that I was beginning to drive myself berserk with the endless amount of thought I was putting into everything. Instead of picking up the phone and calling when _I_ felt like it, I was waiting 3 days like a jerk-off because some other jerk-off declared some kind of golden rule. Instead of telling a woman how absolutely beautiful I thought she was, I was busy conjuring up new ways to neg her. And instead of learning to be real with people, I was learning how to manipulate them.

About 6 months ago, right around the time I launched my own personal development website, I came to the conclusion that while knowing this information certainly helped me, the way I was applying the knowledge was in fact detrimental to my persona. So I stepped back, keeping the rough outlines of what works in social situations, and began doing what I had done all along. And that was to be myself.

But now I knew one essential thing. People are people, there is no reason for all these rules and procedures for social interaction. No-one is going to hurt you, and if they do, thats only because you let them. Now, I have more success than ever with both men and women. I bought a girl I have been seeing for less than a week a nice arrangement of Oriental Lillys the other day. Is it because I'm a sucker? No. It's because I fucking felt like it, and she's a delight to be around. So why the fuck not? Did that make her think I was a chump? Of course it didn't. She jumped and smiled with joy and told me I just made her week. Which of course, is exactly what I wanted to do.

It's all about how you handle things. Keep it simple guys. With the right attitude, perspective, and ideas you can do anything you want. Don't concern yourself with all these guidelines, methods, routines and what have you. Find that ball-park figure, and once you do, embrace it. Then let it all go out the window. I've got dozens of stories of outrageous ways I've brought women into my life, and I can assure that not one of them starts with "Hey Ladies, can I get your opinion on something" (not that this won't work, because we all know it does)

Have faith in yourself, and just fucking do it. If you're nervous about this beautiful woman you see, GOOD! That means shes worth your time. So feel the fear and do it anyway. Life is all about 'just doing it'. So relax, throw your hands up, and enjoy the ride. And let the haters do the over-rationalization while they try to figure out why the women were more receptive to the guy who speaks his mind instead of them, the guys who rehearsed out a conversation ahead of time and are baffled at why it didn't go as planned.

Again, this lesson applies to all walks of life.

Namaste.
Ian Smith.

**Note** I'm not implying we shouldn't rationalize and analyze situations, theres a difference between healthy thinking and excessive thinking. One promotes growth, one stunts it.


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 22, 2008 2:16 pm 
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HERE HERE! This is exactly what I've been arguing all along. There are too many gurus promoting their own take on PUA and shunning everyone else saying that only with their method can you get a lot of girls.
There is no one method that'll get you girls, there is only the routines and techniques which suit you. Only the lines that you invent and only the jokes you thought of.

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 22, 2008 4:17 pm 
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I think you have pretty much hit the nail on the head here. I have been victim to overthinking, and need to take a step back once in a while.


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 22, 2008 4:37 pm 
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It is an interpretation of guidelines man. Of course they are not meant to be strictly followed, but they are there so everyone has a waypoint to reference along their own route.

I am glad to see you realize early on that one of the major points of PUA is: you are who you are. People will like you because of that. If they don't, then there is no reason to try to convince them otherwise.

But remember, another major aspect of this community is getting to the point where you become that person the people like. And then learning the steps to aquire their initial interest, and learning how to appropriately convey who you are.

Too much thought is not a good thing, but there should always be some thought in the SARGING process. You can still be you and be strategic (non-manipulative) when conducting Pick Up.

Quote:
...the guys who rehearsed out a conversation ahead of time and are baffled at why it didn't go as planned.
this is a line that keeps getting repeated in multiple threads since the existence of MM. Rehersal and canned material (not of your own) are training wheels. No successful PUA can thrive off of repitition alone.

There is a big difference between over analyzing and having dependency on material. But yes, I DO agree both are horrible and will lead to unintentional self sabotage, failed game, and weak core.

Glad to see you are starting to get it!

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Last edited by Locke on Tue Apr 22, 2008 4:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 22, 2008 6:03 pm 
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This difference lies in the fact that he didn't buy Lillys to win her over; to get her approval; or to impress her. Rather, he got them because he wanted to reward her for being such a pleasure. He was a nice guy, without supplicating. People that are starting to have success with women need to realize gifts should be rewards, not bribes. The girl appreciates them more and you aren't a chump.

I like how you phrased that. But I also think it depends on the scenario/situation.

I personally feel there are a lot of instances where you would not want to do that right away...even if she is awesome and you do want to reward her. Rewards start off small. Flowers, although seemingly the "thing to give", are a big jump from IOI's, compliments, and a nice night out. They have a certain meaning (that society has created) backing them.

I am not saying set up a strict rule to abide by; however, even if you are not trying to win her over, impress her, or get her approval...giving a present to a woman is an escalation tool. It is used (even if unintentional) to advance the relationship and make it deeper. And it will do this. If that is what you want, go for it.

I know the whole moral of this post is to reduce your judging and analyzing...but again, thinking about it or not - you are still moving your Chess piece. I look at situations like these and I do double check myself. I want to ensure that it is appropriate and that I want to escalate. I mean, there are one hundred more ways you can reward her and show appreciation if you enjoy her company, none of which have the same prejudged"seriousness" as flowers; all of which she will still enjoy.

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 22, 2008 6:26 pm 
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Agreed, thier is a specefic amount of planning, skill and technical accuracy in PU but this is often wrongly replacing wit, daring and intuition.

True PUA's know how to work the two concepts side by side; like outer and inner game, they compliment each-other.


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 22, 2008 7:06 pm 
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e-books from gurus are actually written more for people who failed with women from their early age because of shyness etc.You know all e-books start with storie how they failed and after few years of doing cold approach they succeded.With this they want to give hope to AFC that they can also succeed . The naturals like I.Smith can just try to learn from e-book something they didnt know, they dont need routines,3 days waiting rules or so , they can just keep doing how they did but try to improve.But AFCs like me:P need this step of memorising routines, trying out method from gurus etc, because we dont know other way of interacting with women.But naturals dont need it they already know their way of interacting with women.And one day I wont think about routines and I would develop my method which works for me and I would be called natural.and me happy all happy ! :D
anyway this is my opinion.


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 22, 2008 9:12 pm 
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great post!! very helpful...


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 22, 2008 10:56 pm 
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Sorry I don't have enough time right now to read that whole post Smith, but I did read the first couple paragraphs.

This is a similar concept to one that is introduced in NLP. If you are doing anything and aren't going about it using proper techniques (of course we know in pickup there is not "right" way, but stick with me), then you will do it however feels most comfortable to you and often achieve limited success. Then you learn correct techniques and you actually tend to have less success at first, then after doing it for a while you get much greater success than originally.

Take playing tennis for instance as it is described in Introducing NLP. You are playing an ok level of game at first without any training, but nothing great (Unconscious Incompetence). Then you get a trainer and you have to unlearn all your bad habits and your game actually gets worse for a while (Conscious Incompetence). You get better using the techniques, but still require to focus on using them (Conscious Competence). Then it becomes habit to do things properly (Unconscious Competence).

It looks like this:

Unconscious Incompetence
Conscious Incompetence
Conscious Competence
Unconscious Competence

It is often quite frustrating and many people give up during the unlearning stage, because they only focus on the fact that things seem worse than before. If you stick with it though, you end up becoming much better. "No pain, no gain" as the saying goes.

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 23, 2008 12:10 am 
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Quote:
Sorry I don't have enough time right now to read that whole post Smith, but I did read the first couple paragraphs.

This is a similar concept to one that is introduced in NLP. If you are doing anything and aren't going about it using proper techniques (of course we know in pickup there is not "right" way, but stick with me), then you will do it however feels most comfortable to you and often achieve limited success. Then you learn correct techniques and you actually tend to have less success at first, then after doing it for a while you get much greater success than originally.

Take playing tennis for instance as it is described in Introducing NLP. You are playing an ok level of game at first without any training, but nothing great (Unconscious Incompetence). Then you get a trainer and you have to unlearn all your bad habits and your game actually gets worse for a while (Conscious Incompetence). You get better using the techniques, but still require to focus on using them (Conscious Competence). Then it becomes habit to do things properly (Unconscious Competence).

It looks like this:

Unconscious Incompetence
Conscious Incompetence
Conscious Competence
Unconscious Competence

It is often quite frustrating and many people give up during the unlearning stage, because they only focus on the fact that things seem worse than before. If you stick with it though, you end up becoming much better. "No pain, no gain" as the saying goes.
both yours and smiths posts are brilliant! :shock:

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 23, 2008 12:14 am 
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Quote:
both yours and smiths posts are brilliant! :shock:
Well yeah the
Unconscious Incompetence
Conscious Incompetence
Conscious Competence
Unconscious Competence

that's straight out of RSD.



Ian is a brilliant guy for sure and writes off the top of his head.


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 23, 2008 12:35 am 
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Quote:
Quote:
both yours and smiths posts are brilliant! :shock:
Well yeah the
Unconscious Incompetence
Conscious Incompetence
Conscious Competence
Unconscious Competence

that's straight out of RSD.



Ian is a brilliant guy for sure and writes off the top of his head.
Actually, if you READ my post, you would know that that is from Introducing NLP, which was written 30 years before RSD was even a twinkle in TD or Papa's eye.

I don't think I claimed that that idea was mine at all, I was merely letting people know of a concept that exists, so maybe you should keep your snide comments to yourself. Unfortunately we can't ALWAYS be writing original thoughts, so I appologize for giving credit to the source.

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 23, 2008 1:35 am 
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Quote:
Quote:
both yours and smiths posts are brilliant! :shock:
Well yeah the
Unconscious Incompetence
Conscious Incompetence
Conscious Competence
Unconscious Competence

that's straight out of RSD.
No its not, its straight out of..

http://wiki.mbalib.com/w/images/0/0f/Johari-window.jpg

Something thats been around a lot longer than 'RSD' these 'pua's' really need to stop saying they invented stuff. push pull was invented by no pua, they are all psychological facts that are given a shitty little nick name by 'gurus'

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 23, 2008 2:30 am 
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Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
both yours and smiths posts are brilliant! :shock:
Well yeah the
Unconscious Incompetence
Conscious Incompetence
Conscious Competence
Unconscious Competence

that's straight out of RSD.
No its not, its straight out of..

http://wiki.mbalib.com/w/images/0/0f/Johari-window.jpg

Something thats been around a lot longer than 'RSD' these 'pua's' really need to stop saying they invented stuff. push pull was invented by no pua, they are all psychological facts that are given a shitty little nick name by 'gurus'
Lol, I feel the need to step in and actually say this:

He didn't say he was naming ANYTHING. He merely stated that his source was straight from the book Introducing NLP by Seymour and O'connor, which I'm currently reading. That is the exact phrase and the exact example given in the boook. I think people need to calm down and learn how to read and find the correct meaning of a post before they start flaming.

If you want, get the e-book and go to page 25 of it.


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 23, 2008 2:41 am 
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I.Smith - Excellent post my man. You know I need no other words.

Rye Lee - Great addition to the topic at hand. Sometimes you've got to hit bottom in order to reach the top. That tennis example is exactly what I'm going through with my guitar playing actually - unlearning my bad habits! :D

We've got to remember the rules are like the ones in the matrix, many can be bent, others can be broken. It's all in how you carry yourself in the situation, having rock solid belief and trust in yourself.

Matrix comparisons are tired, I know. But fuck you, I love 'em! :lol:

Based on the quality of the original post, and some of the insightful comments that followed, I deem this to be a POWER THREAD!!!!!!(in my best attempt at a metal singer's voice)! It's one that shouldn't be lost. Any way we can have it stickied?

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