Allow me to introduce myself. My name is Ephraim. I'm 27, male, and a virgin. No sympathy, please. That's the way I want it to be, at least for now. I am a Christian, but I'm here; I am also an aspiring pickup artist.

I'm going to go out on a limb and suggest that there are other men here who, for reasons of their own, do not want to have sex with a woman after just 7-10 hours of interaction, per Mystery Method. In my case, I'd like to wait, at least, until I'm in an exclusive, committed, and LOVING relationship. Your particulars might vary, but that's not important.

I want to know who you are, what kind of success you've had with this goal in mind, and what you've done to be successful like this.

Mystery suggests that there's a window of opportunity after a girl becomes comfortable with you and if you don't have sex with her before that window closes, you are forever consigned to be "just friends." That dilemma is the focal point of what I'd like to achieve. For Mystery, this is no dilemma at all. Just have sex with her after 10 hours, while the window is open, and you're set. I would like, instead, to create a romantic proxy for sex -- a window jam, as it were.

He describes the point of no return, beyond which one will fail if one has not established enough comfort. How does one get to that point, or just beyond it and then SLOOOOOOOW down? I can offer one answer to my own question. With some (many?) Christian girls, the institution of "waiting until marriage" is sufficient. In my case, I'd like to marry a Christian girl eventually, but certainly there is some fraction of Christian women that is sexually active and who, despite their best intentions, will lose sexual interest in a man who won't have sex with them. This applies to women of all walks, of course. They may say that they admire a man who waits for the right conditions before having sex, but that does not mean that their libido will be so satisfied to wait.

That is, unless the man has some technique that he can employ to promote continued sexual interest despite limited or absent sexual stimulation. That is what I'm curious to discuss.

_________________
Some vices miss what is right because they are deficient, others because they are excessive, in feelings or in actions, while virtue finds and chooses the mean.
Aristotle, Ethica Nichomachea

I think the window is more about showing you want to have sex etc, so if you get some kissing etc at this stage you can build from there.

_________________
Troll the trolls
free book http://www.4shared.com/file/123140320/b ... ndows.html

Okay. What is it you're looking for? Feedback?

_________________
Every Saint has a Past, Every Sinner has a Future

I think you've miss read the material, You must show sexual interest before 10 hours of total interaction, I.e. kissing, sexual touching, even verbal sexual communication is probably sufficient enough to open the window, though I can only speculate, having not been in the situation of wanting to slow down myself

I may have misunderstood. I'll clarify the source of my concern. I think that you're referring to what Mystery says about a man who makes two key mistakes: 1) he does not proceed to seduction following comfort and 2) he does not provide hints of his sexual nature during comfort.

I certainly intend to provide hints of sexuality during comfort, but this still leaves me with the concern that if I'm trying to follow Mystery's Method and I do not proceed to seduction, I leave the relationship in a state of limbo. If I do not proceed to seduction, will providing light sexual hints keep the window open?

Moreover, Mystery writes, "Further complicating matters, if the window of opportunity is open and you miss it, don't expect it to open twice for the same bird; it seldom does. For example, she may go home and backward-rationalize all the reasons that it didn't happen." (Mystery Method, p. 200)

That suggests that if I initiate seduction and then fail to escalate to sex, the woman is likely to shut the window eventually. Seduction begins with heavy making out, which, frankly, I adore. Will regular makeouts keep the window open for future escalation or will I get stuck as a guy with whom she'd make out, but not one with whom she'd have sex? This question is particularly troublesome to me because it seems like a reflection of my relationship with my former fiance. (Without going into too much detail, we had a reasonably sexual relationship but she ultimately lost her feelings of sexual attraction for me.)

Possibly, I'm just overthinking the matter. My coach suggested to me early on that women are more flexible in their definition of relationships than men are. If I have with a woman what could clearly be described as a ROMANTIC relationship, then perhaps the window is always open for a SEXUAL relationship, if I choose to escalate in that manner.

_________________
Some vices miss what is right because they are deficient, others because they are excessive, in feelings or in actions, while virtue finds and chooses the mean.
Aristotle, Ethica Nichomachea

I would suggest you be as open and honest about your intentions and desires with the object of your affections as you were in your post. Rarely does a man ever resist sex; if framed properly, this could actually make you more intriguing. The key here is that you have to eventually have sex with her. If you're looking for a way to make it playful and fun, check out the link to my No-sex, Sex Gambit in my signature.

I also feel the need to point out that there are many, many different ways to bring a woman to orgasm that don't involve any penis-to-vagina contact

Your boy,
870

_________________
"Do not blame, call out, alpha male, superman, or water sprinkle any hoes. And what will be, will be." -Hobbit

http://tinyurl.com/c6lbje<-Member Journal (PMZ Only)

If you do not want to have a sexual relationship, why do you want to create "sexual attraction"? This is like waving an ice cream in front of an 8 year old and then yanking it away from him. In my view, you're being a bit selfish. You want the emotional warmth and "comfort" of knowing a girl wants to FUCK you but you'll only react when YOU are good and ready.

If you're not ready to hop on the roller coaster, don't make somebody else wait in line with you.

If you want that Bible belt boyfriend/girlfriend thing, then do it.

1. Find a girl who shares your beliefs.
2. Tell her up front that there will be NO SEX.
3. Make out once in a while
4. Do NOT escalate sexual attraction if you WILL NOT follow through. You'll be looking for another girlfriend in short order.

But there will never be a tight bond no matter what your church tells you.

It seems you want the emotional intimacy that typically goes along with sexual intimacy . . . without the sex component. Well, it simply doesn't work this way. . .

Also . . . you realize that this "sex only after marriage" thing was a big hit back when people typically married at age 16-18?

870, The no-sex, sex gambit is interesting although, as Bonita pointed out in your thread, the length of time for which it can be extended is not indefinite. You raise an interesting point, though, that perhaps the friend zone is not quite as inevitable as many pickup artists preach.

Regarding alternative methods of orgasm, yes, I am aware. If I may be so academic, depending on how strictly I interpret church doctrine regarding sex, none of them might be permitted. (That said, I loosely interpret church doctrine and I am, in fact, undertaking a Bible study to determine for myself what, exactly, the Bible has to say about sex and marriage.)

Kasabi, you have certainly addressed a point at the core of my question. This is precisely why I am here. I wish to find a point of intersection between my religious practice and my desire for intense sexual fulfillment in marriage. (Perhaps before marriage. I am still considering that decision.) Therefore, no, I DON'T want just "that Bible belt boyfriend/girlfriend thing." If you believe that sexual fulfillment is ultimately impossible for people practicing any degree of abstinence or expressing a high degree of selectivity, that is a valid opinion. I do not, however, think that it is one that is useful for me, nor do I believe that it's correct. I would not have begun this thread if I thought that there were no hope of reconciling the two aspects.

The fact of the matter is that I do not intend to hold a woman to anything that does not also affect me. You say, "You want the emotional warmth and 'comfort' of knowing a girl wants to FUCK you but you'll only react when YOU are good and ready." I want her equally to have the warmth and comfort of knowing that I want to fuck her but that we're waiting for a mutually agreed upon point in the future. What I'm hoping to determine though this course of discussion is how to achieve this goal. The fact that I am able to express concerns in this regard should be proof enough for you that professing Christians want fulfilling sex lives too. By no means do I want to deny fulfillment to a woman whom I've chosen to love, but rather, by mutual agreement (implicit or explicit) to delay sexual gratification.

_________________
Some vices miss what is right because they are deficient, others because they are excessive, in feelings or in actions, while virtue finds and chooses the mean.
Aristotle, Ethica Nichomachea

You're confusing "knowledge" and "emotion".

You can surely share your "knowledge" that you can engage in sex later on . . . but you cannot elicit emotions with her.

You can tell that 8 year old boy that he can have ice cream on Friday and he goes, "I really want it now. Ooh, I can't wait."

Or go ahead and wave that ice cream in his face now and then tell him that he can have his ice cream on Friday. What do you think?

Comfort and intimacy are not "logical". Knowledge does not bring you these things. Love is EMOTION.

There's not right or wrong . . . you just choose one and go with it.

Sexual satisfaction can be reached through other practices Like Tantra, if that's what you're after.
Without the "messy conclusion" or Orgasm, as we call it.

Intimacy and such can be done well without sex, just don't lead to sexual frustration, which in most cases lead to either the woman cheating, or dumping you.


There is no time limit for how long you have to know a woman before sex.
I've had sex within the first 3-4 hours of meeting a woman, and the relationship lasted for 5 months, and we're still FBs.

kasabi:
Emotion can be elicited easily without the "necessary" physical "real" components. NLP is a way of doing this.


I believe you should be able to experience all the emotional intimacy you want, and also elicit it within a girl, but at a certain point the sexual attraction will have built enough to her having a "need" for sex, and if you cannot satisfy her sexually then, she may feel forced to compensate elsewhere.

The Bible, as far as I know, doesn't hold against sex before marriage, nor does it hold anything against masturbation (the spilling of seed to the ground was a special case, and in it you'll find it wasn't masturbation, but the man pulling out at the last minute so as to not impregnate the woman. This being what God wanted, the woman pregnant, God chose to punish the man. (I'm sorry I don't have the names and such, Christian mythology isn't my strongest field.))
So masturbating with the woman may be an alternative.

Look into your Bible, and find the Song of Solomon.
That's the best sexually motivated stuff in the Bible, in my eyes.


When it comes to Sex, it's an Art form.
And it does become more intense the more you worship the other person (worship is a relative word here, I didn't pick it just to provoke )
The more you Love the Woman as you Love God. (I'm philosophical here and consider these two to be the same, for as they preach, God is all, and all is God, Woman is God, and you should love with her as you would love your god.)


I'm sorry If I ramble a bit, Religion and sex are two of the most inspiring acts human critters have ever aspired to.


You should also then look into making the whole first sexual act (for both of you) something special. (not just first-time special)
Look into stuff like sensual massage, have a bath with eachother first, wash eachothers bodies, kissing and caressing, Have candles lit, flowers and/or pleasant scents, etc.

Go through the whole Kama-Sutra rituals (Kama Sutra isn't a book of fancy positions, there's under 20 different positions in the original, and it deals more with the spiritual and emotional than the physical aspect of lovemaking, and also deals with such as building the excitement, creating a proper SPAM and so on. the positions it includes are not difficult, and are pretty )


But back to regular non-sex intimacy...
Massage, kissing, regular cuddling, etc. That may work, and if you meet that special girl, you may consider together to pop the bubble a little prematurely. right ?

I'll be honest; I am not positive about the Bible's position on premarital sex. I've probably read most of the text pertaining to sexuality and I'm closely aware of the doctrinal interpretation that the text supports a prohibition of premarital sex. Having recently looked more closely, though, I am not sure that it is an interpretation with which I agree, which is why I need to roll up my sleeves and do some studying.

BTW, I agree with your interpretation of the "sin of Onan." The circumstances surrounding that exchange have always puzzled me, but the summary is that God smote Er and then commanded Onan to marry Er's widow and give her a child. Onan didn't want to mate with Er's wife, so, as you said, he executed coitus interruptus. It was for his disobedience and not, probably, for spilling his seed that God smote him too.

You also mentioned tantra, mutual masturbation, etc. Somebody else mentioned oral sex. The point really isn't to go as far as I can justify. If the spirit of the scriptures is that I shouldn't be having sex, being conveniently flexible in my definition of sex is kind of hypocritical. Do I hope that after a careful study, I conclude that having sex before marriage is okay? Well, yes. That WOULD be kind of nice. If I decide that it's not, though, I'm not going to cheat.
It's not a bad analogy and I take no offense. The Bible itself commonly uses the analogy of Christ as the bridegroom and the Church as the bride. There certainly should be an aspect of reverence and worship in the way that a man and woman love one another.
This certainly jives with my present train of thought. An intimate, emotional, spiritual first time is definitely what I'm looking for, whether I have sex before I'm married or not. Even if my interpretation of scripture changes, that does not alter the fact of my sincere spirituality and faith.

_________________
Some vices miss what is right because they are deficient, others because they are excessive, in feelings or in actions, while virtue finds and chooses the mean.
Aristotle, Ethica Nichomachea

I agree with you. What I meant is really that he "shouldn't" because:
(the "forced to compensate elsewhere" part of this can occur rather quickly.)

There are also other ways to transmutate sexually energy. . . QiGong, taichi, yoga, etc . . .

But sex is sex. You will never get same emotions that are associated with sexual intimacy without the act of sex. The OP desires the same emotions, without sex. This is like desiring the high of cocaine without snorting it. Sure there are "other" highs out there . . . but nothing is the SAME.

Also . . . reading a few books on the tantric arts won't get you anywhere. This is like saying that reading the Bible makes you a "Christian" or reading a book on Kungfu makes you a Kungfu master. Christianity is really a practice. You "exercise" your faith moment to moment, day to day. You can read a cooking book all you want but unless you practice it all the time, you won't be able to cook anything. Tantra . . . it's a practice. . . a it almost always leads to sex. Have you seen any "tantra" gurus?

And in regards to the kama sutra (the original book)

I haven't seen it in a while but I'd say less than 30% of the book has anything to do with sex either spiritual, emotional, or physical. Most of it is, "How to dress your hair, clean your body, wear your clothes, How to furnish your home, the importance of poetry, arts, song, table manners, etc . . . " - A great read really . . . I love the part about the importance of chewing on those seeds after every meal. (To freshen your breath) I mean come on . . . if you just pigged out on Rogan Josht and a pile of onion chutney, no amount of seed chewing is going to help you out with the ladies. . . . ha ha ha ha. . .

Kama Sutra relates to sex in pretty much the same way PUA relates to sex
Which, when you look at it both indirectly and directly, is pretty much 100%

But now I'm just acting the adversary, to stimulate different ideas of interpretation of Kama Sutra, Ananga Ranga, and others.


Tantra isn't something you can read a book about and become a Sex-God from, but you can get the basic understandings from books, and perfect them through experience.

Here's the easiest technique I know, I think I got it from either tantra or the Kama Sutra, nevermind where;
divide penetrations into two basic moves: 1, shallow, fast thrusts, barely inside the vagina (where you start to meet resistance, you'll notice),
and 2. Deep penetrating thrusts, the entire length if the woman is deep enough/your cock isn't too big, a little slower and more thorough than the 1.

The technique is as follows; first 9 of the first kind and 1 of the second, then 8 of the first and 2 of the second, 7 x first + 3 second....etc. when you have gotten all the way to 1 of the first and 9 of the second kind, the next round begins... exactly the same thing.

Just keep it going, and it will usually end up with being just enough to drive her slowly towards the big O, and with the built in pauses (thrust type 1) she will get close, then relax a little, then closer, then relax, etc.
It has the potential for driving the woman into sexual ecstasy (and you as well,)

The longer you are able to let it build up to the point where you and she almost orgasm, and then back off (just sticking to the rhythm and not going for the orgasm just because it is within reach) the more intense she will feel it, and the more intense the whole experience will be for both of you.

I have gotten tunnel vision and gotten really high using this, and when it finally releases into orgasm, the built up amounts of endorphins and natural drugs within your body will ensure a pretty cool aftermath.


Having certain rituals around sex can heighten the experience, but it's cool to have some sex without much ado as well

Just have a good time with it.
And make sure you experiment a little, keep an open mind, and allow the whole image of sex to be a sensual but also playful one. (Sex isn't serious business, it's playful and natural. hehe)



There's, as far as I know, a few techniques in tantra which does not include genital contact, but just real intimacy. (of a type that can be called spiritual, but defining these sorts of things are difficult until you have had the experiences yourself.)

So, get out there and find the open, beautiful woman to match yourself and carry it forward in the rate and speed which you both are comfortable with.
(and, don't feel pressured to do stuff, but remember that if you pull back too late, e.g. when you're both immensely horny, naked and lying in bed, she will, most likely, feel a little rejected, and that sort of thing has the potential of making her doubt your desire for her... some women can get seriously pissed off by that sort of thing.)

ZEGlass...


I too am a very religious christian and also a PUA.

as a PUA your virginity can be used as a tool to draw women towards you rather than push them away.

i sent you a pm with a some info about myself.