Now ya'll know that I've been off the forums for a while, but when I came back, I read all these posts and there's four basic things that are wrong with the forum:

1.Too many people listening to Monkey and Shaft
Now not to say these are bad guys, they are actually really fun and lovable characters in my opinion, but all I've seen from them lately is Monkey and Shaft having little flame wars on each other, and AMOGing everyone else. Even then, there are AFCs and rAFCs listening to them like Gurus, they don't claim to be Gurus nor do they expect to be treated as Gurus but everyone seems to thikn thats the case.
These guys are just like most of the other guys on this forum (maybe a bit better) just with more posts. Lately they haven't been posting any real advice or anything revolutionary just the same stuff.

2.Too many AFCs thinking they PUAs
Look ya'll just cause you got a lay that one time, and you've been practcising pickup for a month, don't mean you got game, you ain't a PUA, you're an AFC who got a lucky, you got to learn more get experience before you think you can start posting advice, I personally didn't post advice untill after a few months at this.

3.Not enough PUAs
where once PUA forums were a home to good information and help, it has been slowly turning into AFC land, all these virgins, keyboard jockeys who don't want to study pickup come flocking in here thinking its all full of hope for them getting that one girl or "The One" or some bullshit like that.
This is a place for conversation about sarging and pickup, not about how you and your girlfriend are doing, not about how to get your one-itis, not about getting this ONE girl (seriously that one pisses me off the most).
I just read Shaft post a post on GUYs getting jealous, what kind of forum have we come to where someone has to post a post on not being jealous when your girlfriend is with other guys, good God. We should be posting about HOW to get her jealous and how to use jealousy, not about US getting Jealous, seriously if we don't change now it'll turn into a shit forum full of AFCS thinking they can post anything they want.

4.Way too many stupid questions
Look boys noone wants to hear about you finding that soul mate, or how you got one-itis and you start to need her, or about need help with a particular girl. Now posting field reports and asking a good question like "is her asking you the time an IOI" is something I could understand.
However having guys ask something like "alright I've been doing pickup for a while but this ONE girl is hard to get, and I'm starting to get one-itis please help, are just stupid and I see soooooooooo much of that.

So come on boys let's fix ourselves and fix this forum, its a place of self-improvement, so lets improve not only ourselves but everyone else on this forum, we got to take a stand before it turns into a bullshit forum!!!

_________________
Its pronounced Jay-Zin

"It's gonna be like Cabo in my PANTS!"

Contemporary Chronicler:
http://thecontemporarychronicler.blog.com/

Best of Jaxin:
best-of-jaxin-vt1824.html

..... Ok ... well first of all what is with the hate. I don't even think people are listening to me, nor do I care. I am here like anyone else. Second Jaxin... or should I say PUA Jesus/Guru you are way over your head hear and babbling about alot of crap. I don't even think there are people here that think I am a guru or even monkey are, I only give out advice where I think I can help. As for posting "real advice" or revolutinary" things we are all here to learn and bullshit. As for your comments in problem number 4.. everyone is here for a different reason, not everyone here is a Guru Jesus............Fuck.....That was totally uncalled for I actaully take that as a personal attack on my part, even when you said we are "cool" guys.

Now I could totally AMOG you Jaxin and post some interesting things tickler (she was a female that joined here awhile ago and was met with aggression due to the fact she was a female) sent me about your PUA skills... but I won't I am not that type of guy.

_________________
Party on Wayne! Party on Garth!
-Shaft

Something tells me Jaxin thinks he is God in human form. Little hateful toward a few of my posts too, and he wasn't even on the right topic...Frankly I think hes an egotistical numbnuts who doesn't really know what the fuck hes talking about. I've been here for less than a month, and I don't think anyone here is a Guru, not shaft, not me, not monkey, and especially not jaxin.

1) People listen to Shaft and I because the things we say make sense. Our advice is good advice, whether it fits with your philosophy or not. We've taken a different path than yours. Ours is a path that appeals to a lot of people. It's natural, it works, and it doesn't require a laundry list of memorized lines and routines. Honestly, I think it's the new direction pick-up is taking in response to The Game. It's an international best-seller, and that means a lot of women are quite aware of routines and canned goods. Naturals have an edge in the Game right now, and will continue to do so for as long as Neil Strauss' book is popular. With movie options sold, I'm thinking it'll be a good long time before the book loses steam.

This point is interesting to me, for a couple of reasons. You claim that there are too many people listening to us. That the forum is just full of little flame wars between us. That we're not spewing anything revolutionary and new. Well yeah, Shaft and I are friends. We pick on eachother. Get over it. And no, I'm not spewing revolutionary or new because the questions being put out are usually of the same sort. I've spit an essay on Freeze Outs so many times my fingers hurt. But I keep typing them because people keep asking. Compared to half of the shit you're talking about, Jax, my shit is 100% revolutionary. At least when I'm ripping people off, I'm ripping off someone new and interesting. You're ripping off old masters and calling it your own fucking "formula." Get a life.

2) There's no such thing as an AFC who thinks he's a PUA. He may be an rAFC, or he could be a really piss-poor pick-up artist, but if he was an AFC he wouldn't fucking be here. Are rAFCs posting advice to one another? Yes they sure are. And kudos to them, because one of those rAFCs is going to be a guru some day. One of those "AFCs that got lucky" is going to post something so fucking revolutionary, you'll wonder how you ever got laid without it. Stop acting superior and help someone.

3) First you complain that people are listening to a couple of PUAs too much. The you complain that the people claiming to be PUAs aren't. Then you complain that there aren't enough PUAs.

If you're looking for advice on our calibre, I suggest hitting a few different forums. I've come to thinking of this forum as a beginner's forum, a place for the new kids to come and learn the basics. That's why I don't mind repeating myself. That's why I don't mind that rAFCs are helping one another. You want to see a bunch of experienced PUAs hashing it out, head to mASF, because that's where they're going to be.

Of course people are coming here looking to score that one chick they've had their eye on for a while. Of course they're virgins and keyboard jockeys. They're not going to get better with you berating them. They're only going to get better with help and some practice, so stop puting them down and spit some fucking wisdom already.

4) There is no such thing as a stupid question, Jaxin. There are stupid people, and there are stupid answers. You are, in this post, proving yourself stupid people. As for stupid answers, I've seen a bunch of those from you as well. If a guy is looking for advice to pick up his one-itis, I'll give it to him. I'll warn him. I'll let him know it's the path to damnation. I'll tell him to fuck ten other chicks. But I'll tell him where his sticking point is and how to get past it. And why? Because curious minds want to know.

Does the forum have problems? Yes. Do we need to fix them Jaxin-style? Absolutely not. So here's where Monkey's list of problems comes in.

1) There are people who aren't helping. They come in, they ask for help, they get help, they come in looking for more help. We need to help eachother if we're going to become great, and that means an effort from everyone. I've made one post requesting specific help on this forum. And it got no replies whatsoever. None. I was given no advice on how to deal with mixed groups, because it was a trouble-spot for me. I had to work it out on my own, and it was a lot more painful than it could have been. I still have trouble approaching guys, and mixed sets tend to end up all-girl sets because I simply can't engage guys. Is this me asking for help? No, it's an illustration of a point. I can deal with guys evaporating from my sets. Some guys out there have girls evaporate from their sets, though, and that's a bit of a tougher problem to overcome. If you see a post you think you can help with, take the time, sit down and type out a response. Stop lurking and help somebody, because tomorrow it could be you who needs the help.

And hey, check it out... I don't have a list of problems. I've got one.

I've told you this before Jaxin, but I'm telling you again. You're being a dick. Knock it off.

_________________
Repent now and save 50% on your next divine judgment.
-Monkey's Little Brother, Spud

woah someone's getting a little emotional here.
First of all my post was not a personal attack on either you or Shaft, it was for you guys to just get what's going on lately.
Now on the topic of this being a beginner's forum, I would have to say that a forum can't function with a whole mess of newbies just trying to give each other advice, and such. No a Pickup Forum needs to have some PUAs here with experience and skills. Look when guys come here for advice a newbie or rAFC can only give him so much advice, we DO need more PUAs here, whether it bea beginner's forum or not, and I don't think it is, well at least not anymore.
Now about what you said on Natural game being the way to go since The Game is a best-seller and the movie's coming out. Bullshit.
Anyone who bases their game on the book is going not going anywhere, we all know the best routines are the ones you make on your own and from your own experiences. Methods like Speed Seduction are effecient and Mystery Method is just overall classic, whether they be better than natural game or not is not as important as whether they are easier to learn and internalize, yes it takes months of internalization before you master it, and speed seduction does take memorizing a pattern or two, but its all about making use of the moment with your NLP skills a lot of improv kinda stuff aswell as patterns on the fly.
However the important thing is that these forms of pickup are easier to learn because its logical and lays out its information straight up. Now Natural game thats hard to learn because most guys of the fact that almost all naturals learn this from an early age, that and in my opinion I believe that a Natural can't teach another person how to be a Natural unless he himself first understands it, and the plain truth is there's not too many Naturals out there who understand how it works.
Whether you think unnatural game is effective or not, there's not a lot of people struggling to learn the concepts and techniques of it.

_________________
Its pronounced Jay-Zin

"It's gonna be like Cabo in my PANTS!"

Contemporary Chronicler:
http://thecontemporarychronicler.blog.com/

Best of Jaxin:
best-of-jaxin-vt1824.html

Let's make love, not war, guys

Love with women

Not war with each other

I don't know who you are, Jaxin, but you sound like exactly the sort of person you are criticising.

When Shaft and I talk about "Natural Game," we're not talking about game you've needed to develop since you were young. We're talking about ditching the routines and the canned goods for a more organic system of pick-up, one that structures conversations rather than simply builds off of the same model every time you enter a set.

Does it work? Yup. Is it easy to learn? For about half of the people who've tried it, yeah. Is it better than Mystery Method? Well that depends entirely on you. While it works for me, I doubt it would work for you, Jaxin; you would actually have to care about the women you're talking to, and I don't think you can.

It takes longer to learn game our way than yours. I'll give you that. It isn't any easier, and there is a lot more room for error, I'll give you that, too. But the application doesn't stop the moment you've gotten her into bed, and it certainly isn't restricted to getting girls to take their clothes off.

NLP is evil and low. If you have to hypnotize women to want to sleep with you, you are a very sick, tiny little person. NLP is the equivalent of rape, in my anything-but-humble opinion, while adding a violation of her thoughts and emotions to your list of crimes.

In the beginning, the pick-up artist community was a bunch of losers tossing ideas back and forth on how best to pick-up women. Once upon a time, we were all the suck. It would be nice if some more experienced people popped in. It would mean less typing for me. But I really don't think we NEED more PUAs. We just need more people who are willing to help and add to the process. Even rAFCs can help one another. Where my skills lack, another persons may fill in that gap, especially in the earliest stages of learning.

And yeah, it is a beginner's forum. Just because you're not a beginner anymore doesn't mean you are the majority. If anything, we are in the minority because we bothered to stay here. I'm kicking it mASF style if I want to learn anything advanced. I come here to share what I've learned with the unwashed masses and because I like most of the people who post here.

And when you finally realize that the easiest path is seldom the best one (they tend to end in either cities or cliffs), maybe we can have a civilized discussion about the differences in our opinions. Until then, I'm done with you.

_________________
Repent now and save 50% on your next divine judgment.
-Monkey's Little Brother, Spud

Well not that it really matters or not, what classifies someone to be a PUA with experience and skills. I have experience and skills, Muse looks like he has experience and skills... hell he stole a lacross players HB girlfriend, Monkey has skills and is one of the most outgoing people I have met. I have read good replies from Intrigue and well there are countless others to that have exeperience and skills too. As for internalization taking months to master, I really don't believe it takes months if you are actually believing what you say. Sure it could take 1 week to 10 years. It all depends on if you can actually understand and believe and have someone backing you up along the way. I had Monkey for my trials and I gained alot of knowledge because I had someone to talk to and I hope more people come on and want to talk about there sarging night so they can better themselves. As for NLP ... well we won't go there .... As for natural game being hard to teach I will disagree, this entire field of techniques are hard to teach due to the fact the only way to teach is to be out in the field and do the three A's, approach, approach and approach. But in order to do that you have to conquer fear itself otherwise you will end up being like every other AFC.

But right now I am gonna agree with Tequila_Sunrise... there is not need to post about problems with this forum, or whos listening to who. Everyone is listening to eachother. I read others break throughs their questions and revalations I take that and it becomes apart of my game. We don't need to hate on someone because they want to reclaim an ex-girlfriend, which I personally wouldn't do... no matter how much I miss her, or how someone wants to find ... "a soul-mate" because personally that is why I am here. I want to find someone that I can share a connection with and have a relationship with. But for me I have come to the realization that I won't find her on the first go around... as I hope others with find out and not fall for the first HB in their game debue. It takes time and lots of fun hunting to find her. If you wanna be a Guru go for it, if you wanna wing go for it, if you wanna bed hundreds of woman, go for it but be honest and don't play games and lie to the woman just to get into her pants and also be safe and wrap your tool if you are promisuous and get tested for HIV and STDs.

But as far as I am concerned I am confiedent in where I stand, I enjoy this forum greatly, I love helping out guys in need... and AMOGin guys who want to fuck girls using NLP or need to be decietful. So I am gonna continue to flame on Monkey... and possibly Tequilla_Sunrise... just because he is the shit and I wanna bug him. This is a forum that needs that... I hate being serious 100 percent of the time. So that is my 2 cents on this entire post.

_________________
Party on Wayne! Party on Garth!
-Shaft

"AMOGin guys who want to fuck girls using NLP or need to be decietful."

amen brotha, im with ya, hypnosis is for retards

First off When Shaft said that, he didn't mean that 'hynosis is for retards',
what he probably meant to say was that he doesn't use it or need it.
NLP techniques are used by people in all aspects of Pickup, they're used my DYD, MM, JM, just about everyone in the community uses NLP for some sort of purpose such as slef-improvement or emotional manipulation. There are NLP techniques that improve your inner game (Natural game is all about Inner Game).
I agree with Shaft and Tequila_Sunrise, we don't need to be at each other's throats, we're all here to learn and help each other.

_________________
Its pronounced Jay-Zin

"It's gonna be like Cabo in my PANTS!"

Contemporary Chronicler:
http://thecontemporarychronicler.blog.com/

Best of Jaxin:
best-of-jaxin-vt1824.html

I agree with various points made by everyone here. Jaxin has a point that advice from rAFC's can reinforce bad habits, however - a forum consisting mainly of newbies has a very positive side too. With the methods of the game becoming better known (and who knows what a movie will do to the pua community) new methods, theories, and approaches need to be discovered. nearly all the classic methods were discovered when the guru's were new to the game and studying the field. I think the best hope forthe community is newbies.

That being said, I don't pretend to have exstensive experience. However, I would take issue with anyone calling me an AFC or even an rAFC, simply from my fast progression. In the two weeks I've been sarging, I succeeded in nearly every pickup. Alot of it was simply memorized openers and routines, but I has become more confident and self-assure I'm experimenting with new approachs, etc. I even had the oppurtunity to field test an opener I came up with and will be excited to share it.

That's what this forum has the others don't. Experimentation. I think newbies are more apt to experiement and deviate from the accepted methods and if the pua community is to continue to exist, we need that.

On a final note, I got something from most of you already - Jaxin, Monkey, Shaft. I could care less is y'all flame each other, just remember you're speaking for yourself, not the forum.

Che you invented a new opener and you are posting on this topic first... shame on you! lol Come on lets see it! I will flame you too if you dont post it soon . As for speaking for yourself I totally agree and I only speak for myself as there is nobody else to speak for..... and last ... Che post the opener

_________________
Party on Wayne! Party on Garth!
-Shaft

"First off When Shaft said that, he didn't mean that 'hynosis is for retards', "

i didnt say he said that, thats what I said and meant.

That is absolute rubbish. That is like calling a gun evil because a lunatic used it to shoot someone. The fact of the matter is, many people use hypnotic language patterns and revive sexual structures within a woman by pure luck. What the hell is wrong with allowing a guy who doesn't have looks to sexually arouse a woman with the same speed as a good looking guy?
Of course these techniques can be misapplied, but for god's sake, the blame lies with the douche who tries to use it on every woman he meets, not the technique itself.

I should also mention I am speaking here with absolutely no bias as I am not a fan of the SS schools at all- not because of a moral objection, just preferance.