Says who? This thread was originally just a query about respect of women amongst PUAs, and then it took a turn of debating whether or not women think logically and then why there aren't very many of them in technical fields.

And within seduction and relationships, it's absolutely the right thing to do to give them respect as a person, and I think many others in the thread nailed it - the amount of respect due depends on the individual. Hellhound, I don't think it's correct to treat them a certain way out of some questionable perception you have of their psychology. I think even doing so sours societal progress because those ideas carry into professional, social, and scientific arenas.

I don't dispute a difference in "wiring" based on gender, but I am willing to bet that the differences that the more objective researchers are studying don't correspond to historically held prejudices.
I think these are major influences on female behavior, and there's a lot of research to say so. I can post it if anyone is interested.

To note, I have tried a some widely held PUA theory on attraction abroad, and found it doesn't apply to particular cultures (even when you know the language). It works in Europe mostly, but I've found in India, China, and even Southeast Asia, western PUA theory doesn't work that well.

In short, my hypothesis is that a lot of pickup theory we use here works because it's been developed within our own culture's social paradigms and it works in cultures where those paradigms hold. In drastically different cultures however, other theories of seduction need to be developed. Thus, I don't really think western PUA theory is as much based on "women's evolutionary desires" as some of the creators of it say it is.

Well, if you simply wanted a categorical 'Yes' or 'No' answer to your thread instead of sparking a debate like this one to shed light on the issues regarding respect for women, then this thread is not about the manner of respecting women.

So what is it do you want? A categorical yes or no answer or a healthy exchange of ideas so we can come up with something better?

Ideas change all the time and people change their ideas all of the time. Hence, I always emphasize that people can attack the idea and refrain from attacking the person in a discussion.

So if this is about the right or proper manner in respecting women, then let's proceed to thresh out the issues. If this is just about a categorical yes or no, you already have my answer. I'll repeat my answer again: Yes, I respect women.

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I would like to suggest a different model of whats happening here.

I was watching some of Mysteries stuff and he mentions thet someone like George Clooney not only does not need to neg hot girls but its actually detrimental to his success if he did. When GC walks into a room he comes in with a higher value than any women in there, whereas when your average PUA walks in he comes in with less valuse than the hot girls, so the PUA negs and adds in DHVs to lower her value and raise his own so that she can then add in her own DHVs so that he can validate them. GC on the other hand would come across as arrogant and rude if he did this as his value is already so high that negging or DHVs widen the gap in value between him and the target to a point where she dosent feel she can demonstrate enough value and so she saves face and storms off. In fact someone like GC might have to throw in a DLV to make him seem more attainable so that the girl feels she can actually demonstrate enough value to be validated by him.

Is it possible that in some countries you carry far more value than you perceive?

I disagree with Paramount about respect having to be earned. I believe in treating everyone with respect until someone does something to make you lose it for them. Trust on the other hand should be earned. I think treating everyone with respect just makes the world a more tolerable place.

I guess I’m posting because I’m a little confused on this discussion. Are we talking about respect in the terms of action or respect as in how someone feels about women? Do people ever actually have the thought that they’re going to actively go out and try and disrespect other people? Maybe I’m just naive but that seems strange.
Are you asking if PUA in general doesn't respect for women?

I will not be engaging Hellhound because I have a vagina.

After learning pick up, I definitely understand women better. They are just like men, but A LOT smarter at this dating thing on average.

Almost all attractive women are pick up artists. They know how the game works, they know how to see the players from the fakers. They are very experienced since they are constantly rejecting the AFCs.

Talk to a girl for 15 or 20 minutes about any subject within dating and she will have a very intelligent opinion. Girls are as smart on dating as most guys are on sports.

What us pick up artists realize is that girls can be manipulated (perhaps a harsh word) to a certain extent to get what we want... girls do the exact same thing, they know all the tricks that build attraction, and know how to get what they want from guys.

With PUA, we have evened the playing field, as a result our perception of women is naturally a little lower than the AFC's perception. We see them as humans instead of goddesses on pedestals.

I think PUA has actually improved my view of women, because now it is much more realistic.

True enough, I agree. Although he probably didn't mean you shouldn't treat people with respect upon meeting them, he was just saying ultimately respect is a sum of personal actions [as in Σrespect = BaseHumanRespect + f(actions)].
I'm surveying to see what people's general level of respect for women is. I left the question a bit open ended, but I suppose if I was to clarify I'd be asking: Do you respect women as your equals in general? Why or why not? Feel free to elaborate in any direction you feel.

The responses so far have been interesting.
Yeah, you might get all crazy with your emotions. Or perhaps challenge him logically, which he'll refuse to take up out of respect, because what you really want is to clean his dirty-ass bathroom.

This wins the award for most perceptive response so far on this thread.
Right. I don't know if our opinion is lowered so much as made realistic. I think when guys are still viewing women on a grand sexual pedestal instead of people, they tend to form all kinds of stupid opinions about how illogical/stupid/hypocritical/horrible they are for NOT sleeping with them and instead choosing what turns them on.

My ultimate opinion is that PUA is just a reframing of mindset about attraction. It works because a bunch of dudes did trial and error with attracting women and then wrote it down for other heterosexual guys to try. So basically it's a bunch of heuristics that work within our particular culture. I find the claims many PUA teachers make about their techniques appealing to "base evolutionary desires" as overstatements, but I agree that they work as far as any heuristic does (i.e. it works well enough).

So all that said, I just find it foolish that some guys try to frame women as unequal, illogical, creatures just because these guys are applying pickup techniques. As fishnwomen says, these guys have been played their whole lives by women, and all of a sudden because they've FINALLY gained skill to generate attraction, they're the smart ones and women are stupid? LOL.

My ideas on this thread are well stated. Challenge them at will.

The ideas I'm attacking that came from you are
1. That women are less capable of logic than men.
2. That when dealing with women in an attraction situation, that you have to respect their "base evolutionary desires". My challenge is that that's crap and you're just repeating a societal trope.

Point #1. My claim is that women are highly emotional rather than logical than men. I did not make any claims that women have less capability nor less potential capability than men.

In fact, many women (with more masculine features) can reason logically and beat most men in this area. It's just that, these women with masculine features are not the types that get most men's dick hard. To support this claim, here's one empirical evidence: http://www.wjh.harvard.edu/~lds/pdfs/spelke2005.pdf

You'll see in that study that Spelke has one hell of a sexy brain and excellent logical reasoning that will put most men to shame. However, once you get to page 951, your dick goes limp.

Another empirical evidence is that when you do a simple Google search on "women philosophy" and then click on the Images option, what you get will be mostly like these:



These women are great in logical reasoning for a reason: their masculine attributes are prominent.

Another thing is that men can better handle stress than women. So in situations like war or career advancement where logical thinking is required under highly stressful conditions, men excel better at logical jobs or in times of war, here: http://sisterleadership.files.wordpress ... levels.pdf

Point #2. Women have more of progesterone (the nurturing hormone) than men do and men have more testosterone (the protection and providing hormone) than women do.

The feminist movement ideal is something along the lines of the Etruscan civilization where women are 'equal' and compete with men.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bq02x382KOk[/youtube]

Their civilization failed to be sustained and what survived instead are more human team friendly civilizations where women work with men as nurturers and men as protectors and providers.

Women's testosterone levels are lower than men while men's average testosterone levels are 10 times and even more than what women have. Genetics play an important role here.

For instance, when a woman is pregnant, how can she EFFICIENTLY fight off invaders or run after a wild boar to target with her bow and arrows? In modern times, how can a 6 to 8 months pregnant woman fit in the cockpit of an F16 fighter plane or an Apache helicopter? On the other hand, we have yet to see a man get pregnant or get a baby incubated inside a man's body.

Thousands of years of these specialized gender roles have hard coded these as instincts in human genes.

Now, I'm not saying that current feminist social memes have no potential to be hard coded in human genes. These can in fact be hard coded into genes and become instinctive. Here's an example: http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/health/2012 ... irst-time/

But it's probably going to take several hundred years before these feminist social memes can be ingrained well into standard human behavior and established solidly in genes across the board in the human race.

There's a genetic reason why the typical woman will instinctively screech and scream when she sees a cobra while a typical man will instinctively get a weapon to kill the poisonous snake. It's called survival of the human race where men and women do teamwork that support each gender and not compete against each other.

Again, men and women are team. They shouldn't compete against each other; rather they should complement each other. That's the proper way to respect women and ensure the survival of the human race.

_________________
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If you don't think of women as your equal then you don't respect women

If you're insensitive to gender differences then you're disrespecting the human race and women as well.

For instance, if you take a pee at the john and women are around, raise the toilet seat up so it's dry for women to use. When you see a pregnant woman carrying several heavy bags of groceries, you'ld better help out carry some of those or else she might get a miscarriage.

At the office, around your female co-workers, cut the man talk and be gender neutral in your language. It's disrespectful to women to talk man talk in a professional environment.

At management meetings and conferences where men abound and women are few, women should better cut those negative labels down to zero and let the merits of their arguments stand out instead of calling out everyone liars, chauvinist pigs, sexist, stupid idiots, assholes and so on without any basis and/or supporting facts.

In the bedroom, you'ld better slap the woman's cheeks with your hard cock and jizz on her face rather than slap her with your limp dick or worst, slap her with your hand. Being a pussy around feminine women is outright disrespectful to the human race and women in general.

_________________
Approach. Open. Escalate. Isolate

Here are my two essential rules on texting that will save you tons of time and money:

general-questions/topic137931.html

Just don't piss on the toilet in the first place

"Why are feminists so ugly?" on Yahoo! Answers lol
http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index ... 856AAUf87Y

Women a lot smarter than men at this dating thing on average? Women get men because men are as easy as the multiplication table of 0. We as men make a decision to start a sexual relationship with them in fractions of a second, they do not need to say a word, they do not need to say or do anything... Whatever they do is filter by the decision we already made of wanting to sleep with them... so we will see it as smart, funny, cute or whatever...
Same happens with women once they made that decision the only difference is that as guys we make that decision with virtually anybody who we think we have chances to have sex with.

Have you ever listen to women talking about their crushes? and their tactics to get him? If you ever have done that you'll see that they have absolutely no idea on what to do, and they complicate things to levels that are difficult to imagine. They manage to get the guy most of the times because we are easy... not because of their tactics.
They see the game from the other side of the coin, so the opinions that they can give to us guys about relationships might be eye opening.
What PUA realize is that many guys are frustrated with their sex and love life, this frustration puts us in such a vulnerable position where we are able to believe all the BS that is thrown at us if is presented by someone who in theory once was in our situation and now has all the success we dream for.
The playing field is not even... as far as I know we are mammals and in all mammals on earth the female is the one the chooses the mate. Society plays a big role on how this choices are made, but still it is their choice... As man we only need to learn how to deal with rejection and be awake and open to the opportunities that are presented to us, because women are so bad at this game that even when they are dying to be with us, they wont be able to let us know directly.

-Before learning about PU, I used to put girls on pedestal which is not real.
-While learning PU I used to think that girls are these programmed creatures to mate, and cheat with the alpha male, that have this amazing super power to see through all your weaknesses, insecurities and intentions and will always discover if you are the alpha or not.
-After having a girl friend and a couple of good female friends I now think that most of women are like guys but with a train of thought that goes much faster (at least than mine), and this train of thought contains a lot of BS regarding the impossible expectations that they believe society wants from them. These impossible expectations are generally conflicting with their self image combined with a fear against strangers, specially male strangers... To cover all these they usually hide in this overly emotional mask. And it is very difficult to cut through all these and communicate to the real person. Unless they already made the decision of wanting to be in a sexual relationship with you. Then you are seen through a different filter. (how they make that decision? My guess is that looks, money, status, past experiences, self image play a big role on that)

If you ask me I do not think PU gives objectively a more "realistic view" about women, and I'm not sure if anybody can ever give that.


Talking about respect... I personally think that viewing and treating everybody as equal is disrespectful and those who claim for equality are doing so because they are stupid or they do not want to accept the parts of themselves that are different. To me, accepting the differences is a part of being respectful. Treating people according to their actions is also part of being respectful.