I have recieved some news letters from this website one of them says you should never approach a woman, and another says never listen to a woman. The letter went on to say that if you ask a woman out and she says shes busy shes probably testing you to see how much you liker her, anyone with any of this?(not appraoching,not listening, etc)

Well if you don't approach, the only way you have a shot is if they approach you. That really hinders your chances... So I think I can speak for most of us when I say against not approaching...

Approaching is very important, you have to do it in a way that is not a DLV. you have to engage your target or target group indirectly to make sure you don't show obvious interest. all about the body language.

i suggest reading The Definitive Book of Body Language by Allan and Barbara Pease

Man, obviously you're getting some very bad advice from those newsletters. I suggest stopping those newsletters and get advice that is actually good.

If you want newsletters, sign up for David D's email newsletters. They will actually help you. Read this forum. That will help you. Sign up for StyleLife's newsletters. You need stuff that's good.

i must admit i fail to see the logic in not approaching. did this newsletter give any sort of explination? did it say...dont approach a girl your friend is gaming? or something along those lines perhaps? i find it hard to believe someone would discourage proactive behavior like that.

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the news letters said something to the effect of making women appraoch you, taking up part time activities, like yoga, being a dj at a strip club, massage therapy, being an expert on cooking modeling and on and on. What do you guys think?

"making women approach you" is fine in theory, and happens occasionally in practice, but only with either MAJOR social proof or some other factor that REALLY sets you apart from the other guys. So, for the other 99% of the time, it's bullshit. Girls WANT you to approach them. A leader will approach the woman. Being a dj in a strip club, or any club, is fine too, but those gigs aren't exactly easy to get either. Massage therapy is cool, and you CAN use that to aid in your seduction. Cooking is wonderful too, and the girls will love you for it, and it will help you to build comfort and some attraction too.

But, overall, it sounds like those newsletters are junk, because all of the pluses I just acknowledged you can talk about here. You can find books and stuff on your own to learn those things. You really don't need THOSE newsletters to help you. Sign up for the good ones. Those will REALLY help you, and use that in conjunction with this forum, and I promise you, you will then be on your way to where you want to go.

This is what they're talking about..

"Be the flame, not the moth."

-Casanova

In other words if your game and non-verb communication skills with women suck, doesn't matter how many women you approach. You will be shot down practically every time anyway. Suddenly your social proof is shattered and your chances of getting with a women in this social context are about as good as winning a cool million dollars playing the slots in Vegas.

On the other hand with a good game, and plenty in common with attractive women you almost assured of success in the right social context. And in this case, success breeds success. Ever wondered why the bank only likes lending money to those who already have it?

Alas there can be significant differences between picking up women in bars, and during day game, school, work context, etc.. And don't let anyone tell you any differently. Many women put up the bar shield the moment they step into a bar, and have no intention of meeting anyone in there. In other words you're already suspect merely due to your presence in the so called 'meat market'. Other women are far too easy, and simply looking to get laid by the first guy that comes along with any game at all and who is in the top 10% in the looks, status (I'm talking money here) and non verb. department. Still others claim they're not there to meet anyone, then they get drunk and fall into the arms of the first guy that's available at closing time.

Is there any real formula that will guarantee success in such an environment, everytime? I'm afraid not. Often it's a numbers game. But then every little bit of knowledge, and confidence and charisma helps. And that's really what the MM is about. Confidence and charisma. Add in a bit of natural game and your success rate can skyrocket. This is stuff that flies over the head of the average Joe. Yeah, maybe he should become a D.J. or something (proximity and social proof are great tools. Especially when you learn how to create your own).

Brand79, send me your email address via PM and I will send you something that will help you understand this further. And will help you structure the non-verbal parts of your game that so many guys neglect. And the parts that separate the true artists from the guys that just get lucky occasionally, not really knowing how they did so or with a woman that had a few too many Jack Daniels and coke.

Once you master these natural aspects of your game, and learn how and are willing to escalate you will find your social opportunities with women will increase exponentially.

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Some info I found online.
#1 end the first date early
#2 dont let her interveiw you
#3 never give a direct yes
#4 never tell her you like her NEVER!

I've got a question for you Brand. You apparently keep looking into what these newsletters are telling you, but have you yet read any of the material that guys on this forum recommend?

This makes no sense I'd like to know how much you success you had hugging the walls all night hoping some girl would pick u up unless you're a famous entertainer or you happen to be that good looking guy thats rediculous and stupid not to approach plus where's the fun in standing around looking crazy all night

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Can you explain #2 more in depth?

I can tell you from personal experience that waiting for them to come to you isn't worth the (very minimal) effort. I've worked hard on giving out an AMOG vibe when out with my friends, and it does work in getting a few girls over to talk to you.

However there's a couple of big problems in my eyes:

i) You have no direct control over who you end up talking to.
ii) The girls always seem to open up with something really lame (I had one the other night start the conversation with something like 'Do you know this guy? No? Oh.') so it's hard to get into any kind of rhythm. I know this isn't an insurmountable issue as you can just grab hold of the conversation, but it does lead into...
iii) You don't get any real practice just talking to random girls.

I'm guessing by the 'Don't let them interview' thing it's saying keep control of the conversation and make sure it goes where you want it.

Uh... waiting for them to approach is the AFC theory. The whole point of the PUA is to overcome this. Don't wait act!

Trying to downlaod the mm ebook now for over 30 min scan process says 0%. Anyways before i mentioned i had a book by chris matthews well i goofed his name is actually JOESPH MATTHEWS(artofapproaching.com). One thing he mentions is to have passion for women. what makes them tick, what they hate, what do they want to be, what was their childhood like etc.. etc... This was a tactic his friend used who was a natural with women who didnt use routines. By the way I read whatever i can get my hands on. David deangelo newsletters, gambler news letters, the ebook i have and so on.