So many here seem to love metaphors so allow me to use one to illustrate what's going on here:

Traditionally in Japan, a poor kid of working age will walk around the city and knock on doors to seek employment. If a sushi house takes him in, he'll clean the bathrooms, scrub the floors, wash the fish tubs . . . hmm. . . probably at least a year. They'll basically feed him and house him with no pay and they won't even let him wash the 'food related' items yet. Then a year goes by and maybe he'll start washing the dishes, going on shopping runs with the chef to carry heavy items, etc . . . His first venture into food might be cooking rice, washing vegetables. And this ultra slow advancement up the ranks will continue until 10 years later, this kid becomes the sushi chef of the house. Of course plenty guys will have either left this particular shop or remained stuck at his plateau.

I'm merely the guy who's had the good fortune of visiting a bunch of sushi shops as a kid. Sure, I voluntarily scrubbed the floors and the bathroom (when the shop owner glanced at me with a stick) but I'm certainly not the person who can provide you with a secret recipe for mackeral brine or the vinaigrette mixture for scallops. Now here's the thing: When I first came across this thread, it was clear that nobody's ever even heard of sushi. All I am attempting to do is to share with you how I go about scrubbing the floor, the toilet, and describe to you the various scents that come out of the kitchen.

Zen also has these 'levels of attainment' (not sure if this is the correct term . . ) If you visit some of these old school temples, you might come across some 50 year old guys STILL SWEEPING the fucking entrance of the temple. When I found out how long this one particular guy's been working at this temple in Korea, I asked an 'executive' monk how it was possible for a guy to be here for 40 years and not even begin learning . . . He offered his insight, "He could be here for 400 more years . . . and not begin learning." - OK, whatever . . . but bvanevery. You're that old man! Reading your stuff brings back memories. Man, as a kid, I thought that old man could have simply dropped the broom and gone elsewhere. Now I know why he stayed.

Yes! You're thinking it. Now, say this a thousand times . . . to who?

This is awesome.
You're beginning to rationalize.
And now, the ego took over.

No, you're just unnecessarily enamored with a "high power distance culture." You believe that lords, high monks, etc. have something greatly superior inside them, and that you are lowly by comparison on some ranking scale. The USA is a low power distance culture, most people consider themselves to be equal to others. We don't put up with this crap and we have philosophical systems that reflect that. There's nothing magical about Zen just because you have a romantic image of being a janitor. We have thousands of years of philosophical inquiry at our disposal, and a few hundred years of anthropological knowledge as well. Zen is a particular cultural pattern with a historical context. You can stand around and sweep floors "until you learn," or you can go to the modern day Ptolemaic Library, the internet, and accelerate your learning on any subject you care to. You can attend universities and access other human beings who have studied all manner of things. Totally up to you, but if you want to romanticize about sweeping floors, that's your choice.

I would be impressed by Zen thinking if with it, you can find a way not to die. Otherwise, belief systems all have to deal with the same material universe, there isn't any magic in any of them. Only magical beliefs that push your dopamine receptors more or less.

*Sigh*

Has anyone noticed, the more we have questioned bvanevery's replies the more 'CLEVER' his posts have become.

bvanevery it may take hours for you to get this, it may take days, it may take weeks... The really really pitiful thing is you may never GET this...

If that is any reflection on your real life... Oh dear.


So far all you have done is attack, ATTACK ATTACK. No surprise here... Isn't this what you've been doing all your life?

What's the real issue here? Is it that Kasabi knows the answer and he's not giving it to you on a plate? Why get angry with Kasabi? What makes you sooo sure he knows the answer? Why not get angry with the Koan?

Why not scream and shout at the top of your lungs....'God damn I can't understand this FUCKING koan.'

You know why you can't do that? It's because IF you still DON'T get it, there would be no-one else to blame... It would be your own failure... and you simply cannot accept this.

So my advice for you now, would be to circumvent your hate towards Kasabi or anyone else in this thread. Forget them... I can tell you they know NOTHING.

Now just concentrate, meditate and think about the Koan without any distraction from anyone else. When you have done this come back to this thread and tell us what you have discovered.

_________________
*Justice renders the WEAK his due*
My Journal
here-vp445642.html#445642

I think maybe the problem here is that we percieve the monkey as a threat.

The monkey tells us we are in this confusing situation with the posibility of pain, and we then immiediatly view the monkey as our enemy, as though he caused the pain.

Maybe, the monkey has a little more to tell us? Maybe the monkey could help if we stopped viewing him as an aggressor?

^Nice...

Now let's say you went to the doctor and he told you your mother is going to die from cancer.

That's some pretty unsettling news isn't it? But we don't feel compelled to view the doctor as an aggressor or enemy. The Doctor is just a messenger right?


Isn't the monkey just the messenger? Why does everyone assume the monkey is somehow going to cause his mother or father's death? I wonder why so many here immediately want to beat the FUCK outta that monkey for simply speaking??

Hmmm....

_________________
*Justice renders the WEAK his due*
My Journal
here-vp445642.html#445642

Wow, you're quite the character. I told you that this is just a dumb little puzzle. Everybody here and most of the World treats it like one. Some figured it out, most have not. . . That's about it.

On the other hand, you may has well been scrubbing your toilet. What do you do when a girl asks if you want a blow job or anal? Do you tell her a story about her belief systems and your belief systems and the American low power distance culture and her love for the lord of blow jobs and fantasies of monk-hood and magical beliefs, and dopamine push and on and on and on and on and suggest she attend a University . . .? LOL. . . How do you make it through a day? What do you tell the coffee girl when she asks, "Sugar or cream?"

Probably just a coincidence that the old caretaker of that temple was also a fan of very interesting but completely unrelated to whatever the hell was going on at the moment jabber.

Interesting course of events.

Dude, I am not trying to fclose you. Changing the subject is the classic dodge of a person who has lost the debate. I have shown you the pointlessness of your puzzle.
It all depends on the rules of the mythology. We don't know the rules, we are thrown into the mythos without point of reference. We will only understand the rules by interacting with them. We may be able to learn from the monkey, or negotiate with the monkey, or befriend the monkey, or we may not. The experience of the monkey, of being thrown into this mythos, is Absurd.

LOL . . .

This isn't a shit test. This isn't a debate. This isn't a discussion about World Philosophies. This is a question for which your answer is "it's pointless" and introduced every topic you could possibly remember from a few freshman level classes. We get it . . . 'it's pointless'. Now what? Why are you continuing to remind of what you already told us since your very first post? - Clap, clap, clap. You did it! You won the debate, the shit test, the imaginary war of philosophies. YOU have defeated me! You can't see me now but I am kneeling before you.

... But you still have no fucking idea what this "Pointless" question is about. It's really not a big deal. Why the huff and puff? You'll can still go on to many marvelous things in life. It's just that you won't be able to answer this silly little question and that's that.

And of course I was kidding, I'm sure you're better able to answer other questions in your life . .

...But just in case, seriously, "sugar or cream?" - LOL . . . Really, you've come this far, please offer us a little more wisdom. And yes, I'll admit to changing the topic, losing the battle . . I am just ticklishly curious about your take on this next question.

Thanks

You've gotta be kidding me. I graduated almost 19 years ago, with a B.A. in Sociocultural Anthropology. I friggin' majored in Belief Systems, i.e. what your culture is really doing for you, as a matter of historical advantage. I've lived, and thought, and applied. Consequently, I have a pretty strong Bullshit-O-Meter.
Yes I do. It's about you privileging a particular philosophical system so that you can convince yourself and others that you hold a special insight. There's a word for this particular pattern: Orientalism. http://hypertiling.wordpress.com/2010/0 ... ientalism/ You can't actually define or prove your insight, you can only dance around it and hide it. DHV all you like but you ain't foolin' me. Everyone else will decide for themselves whether you're foolin' others.
Not comparable. When the proposition is "death of A or death of B," the stakes are high. Almost nobody is fatally allergic to sugar or cream, so the stakes are nonexistent.

. . . I'm sorry.

It's not my word, and for you to claim it as such, shows the depth of your ignorance.

Hey B man, You might just be a fucking moron. (Not my words. Look it up in the urban dictionary) - Doesn't really make sense to me either but surely seems to fit. Again . . . sorry.

And thanks for the laughs.