Moderators, Seriously . . . What is going on here? I can see that just 'maybe' there could be some commercial returns to this bullshit "natural" topic but reading through the threads, all I can say is that it's STILL filled with moronic threads supporting more moronic ideals. Can we bomb this section once and for all? Why not leave this crap for the other forums that suck?

I'm reading this whole section and don't know whether to laugh or laugh, or laugh as it has nothing to do with pick up but everything to do with guesswork of delusional prepubescent kids. Why are you supporting this?

I think the problem is that there isn't much to discuss when it comes to natural game. There isn't routines or lines or strategy or anything like that, which would be specific to natural game alone. So basically anything worth saying about natural game, would be better stated rather than discussed.

I do agree however that "Natural Game" is an oxymoron, because if it were truly natural, then it wouldn't need to be learned or nurtured; and those with it would have no use for a pua forum. All products marketed as "Natural Game" are really just other forms of direct game mixed with some Alpha training. This type of game might mimic true Naturals, but by definition, one cannot artificially become natural. But "Natural" is the new buzz word used to sell products.

Whats the difference between natural game and direct game? Are they not the same thing? i.e. direct game is natural because you make openers up on the spot, you convey your natural sexuality etc.

I think they overlap a lot in practice but are nevertheless distinct. Direct game means just that: being direct about your intentions, rather than keeping your game out of sight. Example, "Hey, love your hair, let's have a drink" as opposed to "hello, where's the next Starbucks."
Natural game is improvisational rather than canned. Instead of memorizing openers, IoIs, kino games, and silly routines, you are using your own material--namely, whatever comes to mind at the time. You don't memorize step-by-step instruction until they become second nature. There, the line between natural and canned game gets blurred. Routine monkey has internalized his blueprint to the point where he can maneuver the course blind (though he's still using canned material). Natural gamer has picked up on behavioral patterns that work and adopted them into a structured approach.

What I do not understand is kasabi's trolling against natural game. First, why insist that the only way is your way? Second, if you're such an avid fan of canned game, why would you want everyone running around with the same memorized material? Live and let live. I mean, all it takes is not clicking on that dreadful "Natural Game" link

It's true that you can't say too much when it comes to natural game, because it is a product of your self-esteem (inner game), and there are other sections on this forum that cover this.

One kind of relevant topics here would be, how did everybody get to their natural state, but that would be just a collection of their own experiances.

The other would be, what kinds of tricks to use on yourself, to open that naturalness.

Natural game is much different than direct game. They're almost opposites, it seems to me. Because with natural, you are communicating desire in a nonverbal way: She knows that you're attracted to her, but since you haven't said so, she has no grounds to reject you. And since you're tuning in to her sixth sense, it leads her to think she has a special connection with you.

With direct game, you're stating your desire, and so you're risking a blowout. If you don't mind rejection, then direct is the most efficient method. But unless you're super-attractive, direct is a mighty tough way to land 9s and 10s. Besides, natural is a more invigorating challenge.

I absolutely do think it's worth devoting a message board to natural game so that we can help each other find natural solutions to the little obstacles that occur as you're learning this method. Because none of us (or at least very few of us) are true naturals. We just believe it's possible to adopt the style of a natural PUA.

I disagree. I think natural game can take just about any form, depending on your personality. Because it's who and how you are, natural game can be direct or indirect. Mine for instance is extraordinarily direct, often outrageous, and way entertaining to me and everyone around me. Then again, if you're less assertive/aggressive, your "natural" game would be more indirect. The notion that natural game has to be subconscious is new to me.

As for naturals, their game is less rehearsed. Most of PU focuses to teaching you what to do in order to get laid. Natural game, in my book, does that, too. But rather than giving you routines or canned material, natural game is more about your personality, inner game, and thus more improvisational. Naturals just have a way with people, women in particular, without consciously learning or practicing. Growing up, I was a true natural. I could not tell you the first thing about picking up women, but I intuitively did a lot of the things PU preaches (DHV, negging, C&F, etc.). Worked great until I turned AFC through a LTR. Since then, I've used PU to get back to where I was before. Only difference now, I am aware of all the things I do, why they work, and how to teach them to others.

The responses to this thread are good examples of why this "Natural Section" is pretty disconnected with the rest of the forum and in reality with "Pick Up" itself. If the moderators chose to put this up, then somebody should take some responsibility to follow through and act as guides, even if is to simply SELL more crap. As it is, it's just smorgasbord of confusion.
Not true. I have/had plenty of NATURAL friends who repeat one or few lines over, over, and over again to routinely pull chicks. In fact, I could make a case that plenty naturals are more socially inept than people who can't pull. The industry has tried to glorify "Natural" to sell more shit and in the process have re-invented the term to that wishy-washy BS you've written above.
By its true definition, the "Natural Gamer" simply figures out what gets him laid and does it over, over, and over again. Most have no fucking sense for patterns of any kind. I've known guys that beg like fucking retards for sex. They sit there and beg, beg, and beg. Nobody taught him to beg. He's been begging since middle school . . .and he gets laid all the time. Then there were the 'molesters' who were so uncomfortable socially that they could hardly squeak out a few words. Some would literally point to the make out spots of a club, bring a chick over there and start dry humping her ass. Are you trying to tell me that these guys are NOT natural gamers? They get tail. . . they do it there own way . . . and nobody's ever taught them a thing. I could recommend a few things, and they shrug and go about doing what comes "NATURAL" to them.

So, to clarify:
Nothing against Natural GAME. Only against the BS that goes around in this Natural Section which in my view only limits progress and creates further confusion.
If by "My Way", you mean the thousands of different "ways" and ideas that are posted in every other section of this forum, then yes, "MY WAY" is better and those thousands of different ways are the 'only way'.


You haven't read my initial post.
I love cliches that make sense. Unfortunately, leaving this section alone the way it is right now would be to, "Live and and let delusional virgins continue their bullshit."

That's some amazing insight. Something has always bothered me about guys learning "Natural Game", and you hit on it. For a lot of guys it's just another way to avoid change. Rather than dealing with the initial awkwardness of gaming, they delude themselves into believing that doing what comes "natural" is the answer, even though it's never worked for them before and even though it's admittedly the easier route. Rather than struggle to try and master some form of game, they convince themselves that their way is better and doing what comes natural is better, even though failing naturally is what led them to pu in the first place. It seems like their egos are too strong to allow themselves to admit they need to work on themselves, instead they'd rather believe that they are perfect and it's the world that need to adapt to them and not the other way around.

Now this is not to say that I don't believe in "Natural Game", I do. But I don't think you can start out with natural game, nor do I believe it can be taught. Rather I believe it to be the end result of years of gaming. Once you improved your game enough, through years of inner game improvement and outer game practice, gaming will become natural. You will reach a point where you won't need a system or type of game to succeed with women, because you will have greater confidence in yourself, and greater understanding of yourself, a greater understanding of women, fearlessness, and a faith in your abilities. Guy's who get to this point are the ones who create pua material, the "gurus" as some refer to them, are simply seasoned gamers who saw beyond the material they studied and had more insight and perspective to offer the community. But they couldn't have gotten there without first following the instruction of someone with more experience. Everyone has to start at the beginning and work their way up. Trying to use "Natural Game" as your first form of pua, is like trying out for the Olympics before ever trying the sport first. You have to crawl before you can run.

I realy agree with this , Natural Game to me is experience , getting experience , procesing this experience and utelizing your experience in situations that you are now familiar with


Social Shyness & Anxiety - Help you to overcome fears to be exposed to more situations
Beliefs and Confidence Building - again as said above ^^^
Self-Esteem, and General Inner Game -again as said above ^^^
Body Language, Voice Tonality and Dress - Help you to improve your Image so you can become more comfortable with yourself
Building an Attractive Lifestyle - Probably the key to Natural Game
& Maybe Health & Fitness - help you to improve your Image so you can become more comfortable

Natural game is Experience
Practice is perfection

- Thats my 2 cents anyways

Not sure what your concept of natural game is, but what you write above is way off. But then again you know that, because of what you write below. Whatever your definition, natural game cannot just be adherence to the status quo. It is not doing what comes "naturally" to you. That's a semantic confusion. As you point out below, natural game is harder initially, because you are pushing yourself more (not less). Not only do you do new things that are uncomfortable to you, but you do so without canned material in your back pocket.
I also disagree here (except for your implicit definition of natural game), but you make an interesting point. True, natural game won't get you results as quickly as some guru's method. Rather than being handed a map, you're told to head east, and off you go into the forest. But there are reasons I firmly believe one can start with natural game--and why natural game is superior:

First, you should not need external factors (e.g. 50 SNLs a year) to feel good about yourself. It's healthier to figure out what you like about yourself and what you don't. Keep the former, fix the later. The one concession I'll make to the OP is this: don't help your self esteem by telling yourself your awesome and too good for anyone who doesn't think so. That's delusional and misguided.

Second, won't you reach a point with canned game where your confidence relapses? If I sucked with women, memorized a few routines, and got laid with them, I'd feel increasingly pathetic with each lay. Because the girl goes home with me because I've learned to pretend I'm someone other than who I am. Maybe it's an easy truth to ignore, but I'd feel like a bit fake.

Third, and building on the previous point, one thing has bothered me about PU. The fact that you take someone else's material to make pretend you are desirable to women. Seems like pulling a scam on the fairer sex. Whereas if you use your own material, you win and lose on your own merits. Which leads into my next point.

Fourth, I'll respect the boring guy who makes his life more interesting. Yet I'll look down upon the average guy who tells fake stories (DHV) to seem cool.

To me natural game comes down to this:
1. Identify appealing traits and adopt them (rather than learning how to fake them).
2. Use your own mind/words instead of memorizing someone else's.
3. Learn to be at piece with and by yourself. Learn that you don't need women as much as you enjoy them. Despite my oversized libido, I frequently choose friends, new and old, over sex with 8s-10s.
In one phrase, use some introspection, treat the disease and not the symptoms. You'll find your encounters with women more genuine and thus enjoy them more.

I understand and respect Kasabi's thoughts, but the only thing that can be done is for them to change the title of the section. Perhaps rather then writing Natural Game it should be referred to as Scriptless game.

Kasabi and I have already argued and he has his thoughts, my problem with some of his thoughts is half the time it strikes me that he learned most of his information from the same TYPE of teacher. In order to master the world you need to have many different forms of information, if not you get the same information. One teachers teaches his perception of the world, many teachers will teach you many perspectives on the world. He is very well educated and that is great, but the school systems these days limit what you learn. If you aren't off learning on your own you are learning what everyone else already knows, I'm not saying I haven't read school textbooks, I have but structure learning will limit you to what they want.

He argued that Naturals were great because it is instinctual, I argued that you can make the same behaviors instinctual. He preceded to say then it isn't natural, it was a bs argument neither man won. There are too many arguments about Nature vs. Nurture as if one can exist without the other(biologist have the best view IMHO). Both help in shaping who we are and what we do. We gain our fear appraisal(though it has been proven that some fears are pretty instinctual) from being scared of something in the past. We react to future relationships(friends, family, work, and sexual mates) based on past relationships, but at the same time we still evaluate most females based on their reproduction adequacy initially or looks to say it short(nature). Even our taste in women can be influenced by our past. It is however important to realize that nature makes us attracted to a young a fertile(looking) mate not nurture.

Natural Game for me is about understanding the concept of our evolution. What I mean by that is that we evolved based on SEXUAL CHOICE. Our genetic ancestors chose the best Mate they could. My concept of natural game doesn't stray from this. We learn proper behaviors, gain the proper tools, and then we learn the proper order to successfully mate. Morris has a 12 step observation of courtship, Givens has a 5 phase, and Perper had a a multi-phase observation as well, they are just different perspectives on the steps it takes to have sex with a women in a social interaction. So you learn to present yourself as a strong and powerful sexual mate(this can mean needing to learn several different tools: charisma, confidence, talking, listening, etc.), then you learn the steps it takes to have sex(reading body language is very important for the Natural) and work accordingly. Sounds incredible simple but it is very difficult to get good with Natural game, because it is all based on YOU.

The natural game could be considered a joke to Kasabi and that is fine, but his opinion is worth as much as anyone else's to me and that isn't much. He came on here trolling to get a spark in argument like he does here and there, personally I don't understand why the hell he feels obligated to make comment on a section he doesn't like, all it does is make him look like a troll and an asshole. I finally started to respect him based on his other information, because he truly is a very intelligent poster but then he does shit like this, acting like a prepubescent boy posting something like that to me is quite hypocritical and completely asinine. Bitching about shitty threads and then putting up a shitty thread, very hypocritical.

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Just another guy from back in the day.

Blogging again living life: http://www.Scienceofnaturalgame.com

I'm certain that you do not.
Majority of what's found in other sections are 'scriptless'. Most of what's going on in here is garbage misinterpretations of everything that's going on in other sections + a sugarcoat label of "natural' to make themselves feel _____? Laughable. . .
Are we still talking about PU? You don't need to be a master of anything. We're not sending men to the moon. We're chatting with chicks. Some guys naturally pull chicks, others do not.
Getting pretty good with reading body language would make them that: Good at reading body language. Again, INSTINCTS do not equal natural game.


So you're the participant and judge? LOL . .
Too much baggage and too much irrelevant info. The topic is PU. . .
This is the disconnect. There is no "to you" or "to me". What do you say when a chick says go down on me? "No, because 'going down' to me means I need to hop into an elevator"? Natural Game is just that. Natural game. Some guys beg naturally, some guys molest naturally. Some guys sweet talk chicks naturally. Either way, 'Naturals" pull. While there is nothing wrong with "coming to understand the concept of our evolution", there is nothing 'natural' about studying history, philosophy, and anthropology to improve your pick up performance. You're a posting oxymoron.
Again . . .this is an insult to every 'natural' in the World. It's DIFFICULT FOR YOU because you're the furthest thing from natural. Let's have some respect for 'naturals' and stop associating this weird thing you have in your head + yourself with naturals and natural game.
You still don't get it . . . I don't think of 'naturals' and what they do as good or bad. They pick up and they do it well; it's just their way. There are a lot of things you can learn from them. What I think of as a joke is this particular section where everybody talks out of their ass.
^This perception is why you respond the way you do. My motives here:

1. Point out to newbies that this section is filled with idiots and their idiocy.
2. Labeling yourself natural or unnatural or organic won't get you jack.
3. Natural does not equal instinctive or do what ever the hell you want to do.
4. If you want results, follow the steps taken by those who have succeeded. (Read the other sections . . . take a look at the moderators . . .see anybody who's proud to label themselves natural or organic or vegan?)
5.This contents of this section impedes progress.
What you probably meant is that I put up a shitty thread, to bitch about shitty threads. And if this is true, it's one shitty thread vs. every post in this section which has nothing to do with pu and everything to do with little kids labeling themselves one way or another. It's immature and an impediment to pu progress.

LOL I knew it, as soon as I post he argues. I had to, couldn't help it.

Hope all is well Kasabi.

_________________
Just another guy from back in the day.

Blogging again living life: http://www.Scienceofnaturalgame.com

Well if this is just your opinion:
... then why then do you start the thread by
or in other words: just some unconstructive trolling and bullshit which offend other people? What if someone one day posts a thread: "Moderators, seriously ... What is going on here? Shouldn't we remove that troll of a Kasabi?"

And why then answering with a deffensive "look, all I want to say is THIS, and YOU DON'T GET IT". It's always someone else, it's realy too hard to say: "okay, you're right. period".

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You WANT to make a change.
You CAN make a change.
You WILL make a change.

Ambitious to be succesfull => Shyler