Quoted for truth. Totally agree. (Can't believe I just read that entire post).

Trying "Natural game" doesn't mean "Be stupid". If what you're doing doesn't work then try something else. If you keep approaching and being all needy and then going: "Look at me, I'm doing natural game and it sucks, my results are worse than when I tried scripted game.", is totally YOUR fault. You should be able to adept and find faults in things that don't seem to work.
Your success rate dropped, because you started "asking", instead of just going in and "doing".
Pickup is learning how to be your best self, so that you'll be able to meet and attract new woman that you find sexually attractive.

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An approach a day keeps the guru away.

Pinocchio ~I applaud you on your words on Natural Game... very very true...

With MM or any other method... the thing is.. there are alot of people whom are new to Pick Up that are here because.. they have no natural know how of how to attract women... even if they get passed social and approach anxiety.... They still dont know what to say or how to say it.... Some of the in depth methods do in fact teach calibration...
They certainly dont know how to read any social ques or body language as someone whom has developed a good natural game..


My opinion is.. Methods arent bad for beginners... its a structured system for someone whom has nothing of their own.. Once you have had some successes with the system and have overcome some of the awkwardness you started out with... it is then time to transend the system and start learning how to develope yourself naturally.... Using the enviroment and SPAM that you are in instead of canned material...


I hear alot of people saying to beginners.. "just be yourself".. sure.. well obviously that isnt working just that plainly... also "be your best self" which of course is true.. and one of the points of PUA..
They need to be taught.. "HOW" to be their best self...

Often when it comes to women newbies will open a set.. and their mind will go blank because they literally have nothing to say.. then theres that awkward moment and they are blown out of set..
Methods give you that "something" to say..


I personally do not use any method... I did learn the LONG and hard way... years ago I was socially awkward and didnt know what to say to women.. and had no methods.. No PUA artists around or any way to find one.. This goes back 11years ago..
So sure.. people see me talking to women and picking them up.. and often are like.. How the fuck do you do it?

Im not bad looking but I am bald, hairy, 6'1 and a bit overweight.. yet still extremely successful with women.. what works for me is that I am also built muscular not just fat.. I do have a mean alpha look.. and my presence is definitely a dominant one.. so yes.. I use these to my advantage..
Plus I have learned how to talk.. throw stories in(not canned), use what is around me at that moment.. think on my feet.. get passed "bitch shield".. etc.. That takes time..
All in all Natural game takes many more years to learn than a Method...


My Advice is.. if you are new and have had 0 luck with women.. Adopt a solid method for the first few months to get your feet wet.. use it as practice.. meanwhile continue to develope yourself and eventually retire using someone elses Method System and form your own...


I hope this was helpful


~Genuine

_________________
Keep doing that and I'll make you tremble...

Cutiest girl ask for more, unfortunately someone's creeping on my floor.. an empty glass a topless babe a knock at the door.. girlfriends girlfriends never could be more..

I think everyone needs their own style. I think the thing about getting into pickup is that if your trying to be truly natural, then it isnt possible you have already seen the community an your already here. I like trying "natural game" because it allows me to be me, the thing is, this community has tremendously changed me as a person. I am now the better me as compared to the weaker me. I think being an RSD natural is awesome. I also think I already have the cube memorized and I have read a lot of stealth attraction and 60 years of challenge stuff so I am more hyper sexualized. I think routines and gambits are something to know just cus they are fun and they can pop into your head and be fun when your sarging, however I see a lot of people just relying on them. So I choose the path of a PUA. I am not a gambit monkey and not truly a natural. I am Rox. I have the skill set to get babes and be myself simultaneously. It is how it is.

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Social interactions and fun, that's why I'm here.

Muchos gracias
That's true, even without a method.
I don't agree that calibration can be thought. You have to have reference points to be calibrated. It has to, by nature, come from experience.
This is my biggest thing. I don't think that putting a structure on such a formless thing is beneficial. I think that it's much easier, faster, enjoyable, and effective to learn to do thing right from the beginning. My first approaches were after listening to the Daygame podcast and going out without a structure, and to just have fun.
I get you. I think it is a problem when people say that and don't elaborate on what they mean. Or when people hear that advice and don't understand what their best self is. Especially when they aren't willing to be humiliated while trying to become it.
That's true but experience teaches you why, how and when to say it. As well as actually saying something appropriate and engaging for you and her/them.
It also teaches you that it's YOU that can get laid, not some material. It's so easy to learn a few simple tips, than memorise some lines.
Happy to hear you're enjoying life.
YEARS?!! That's crazy man! Sure, it's a lifelong process, constantly improving yourself, but come on... Aside from eating, it's one of the most primitive things we can do. If I had of thought it would take me years to get good, then I would've happily played the numbers game, just asking women to fuck.
Massive problem with the community is that their replacing basic human traits with complex ideas and theories.

The first time I walked over to a girl (had a massive thing for her for years too) and said "You look absolutely stunning, I can't let you get away", she went crazy for me. Getting with girls is the easiest thing in the world. I'm still very shit at it (my housemate who does not know about the community is unreal) but I can usually get a girl on a night out if I try. She has to look well sexy too. I've never approached a girl that I didn';t really find attractive.
I see where you're coming form, and I do agree, to a point. I will say that most methods and advice will be counter-productive. Maybe instead of a method you could just learn to use more statements, assumptions, etc... And don't say you've learnt them 'til you've gone out and tried them in real life. No advice is worthwwhile without the practical experiences as reference points.

I hope this was helpful


~Genuine[/quote]

I really enjoyed that. Take care, mate.

When I say years... I mean to master...
I did see an immediate change when I changed my confidence and attitude.. But in a couple years I could pretty much always get my choice of women over other guys because of what I learned over time.. I speak alot in the chat... Most have seen the pics and vids from my experiences... Im very picky...

I am def one of the most experienced and successful in pick up on this forum... Bold statement... Cocky... I know... But True...

Im here to learn how to teach others better... And continue to always sharpen my skills...

~Genuine

_________________
Keep doing that and I'll make you tremble...

Cutiest girl ask for more, unfortunately someone's creeping on my floor.. an empty glass a topless babe a knock at the door.. girlfriends girlfriends never could be more..

Please try and see my point ...
THERE IS NO DIFFERENCE BETWEEN NATURAL AND CANNED GAME. They are one and the same, they are yin and yang. People who claim natural is its own school are wrong because there no such thing as game without structure. No matter where they start people BECOME natural AFTER internalizing game structure. That's just how it works. The natural approach teaches the opposite, go out, approach, throw up a random structure, then remember and hold onto what works, discarding what doesn't.

Why go through all that trouble when there are already perfectly good, field tested methods in existence?

Naturals are people who have thought up most of their routines themselves. Fine, but recognize the routines and RECOGNIZE THE STRUCTURE. If you move a girl from A1 to close without consciously thinking about it, just because you didn't call it that or use DHV's, Negs and comfort building routines from, "The Game", guess what, you still used MM, unconsciously. Therefore discrediting MM and similar methods is stupid because we're all using them regardless. Saying you don't need to learn them is more stupid because you already are using them, just in a half-assed, inefficient way. You would never hear a player who bases his game on, 'method and structure' saying natural game is wrong, because he knows he needs it and game without being natural would get him a big fat 0. Yet so many 'naturals' use their own structures which are so similar to MM they could have saved themselves loads of time by just starting there in the first place.

It is possible for a structured player to become, 'natural' and we embrace that
Yet, when 'naturals' become structured (by plowing thousands of sets and creating their own stuff, this is not WRONG hear me out...) they claim MM etc is shit. They don't realize they're using the same method, they just discovered it themselves.

How do you think Mystery discovered his method?

By doing the same shit all the naturals are doing. The only difference is his routines were written in a book, yours are not. He had to go in reverse (Natural to structured vs. Structured to natural) because himself and his buddies back in the day had no structure handed to them. Mystery (and other pioneers) had no method, so they created it. And what do we do? Go out as, 'naturals' and insist on creating it all over again for ourselves. It's like if someone cooks you dinner and you throw it out then cook the exact same meal because you wanted to 'experience the cooking for yourself' that's bullshit, no one would do that, yet that's really what naturals are doing.

So again... Once "structured' game becomes internalized, you become congruent and you are then running 'natural' game. BECAUSE THE GAME AND STRUCTURE IS NOW LITERALLY NATURAL TO YOU.

Learn the structure THEN become natural at it

Isnt that what I said?

When I started... I had no structure to follow.. I had no label for anything really.. I learned on my own... MM
Wasnt around yet... The Game wasnt written... I just observed and tried things that I seen work... Not so much words... But how they said things...


Now Im great at it...

_________________
Keep doing that and I'll make you tremble...

Cutiest girl ask for more, unfortunately someone's creeping on my floor.. an empty glass a topless babe a knock at the door.. girlfriends girlfriends never could be more..

God... what a long post. Same method vs natural shit again. I don't know for whom is it necessary to learn the structure and for whom it isn't. I know that for me it gave a huge boost to my game. Then I realised that some parts of the method are just not congurent with me and I discarded those. I also barely use any canned shit any more. But I needed them. I needed the canned shit to come up with my own shit later, on the spot. It's not because my "routines" would be so similar to Mystery's. It's because they gave me confidence that I'm not a complete pile of shit and can actually get the girl. I don't know if anyone has written this already because I don't have time to read through all this but here is what I think.

Naturals: "Listen to your core. Be yourself." Good. The problem is, before I started the game, the voice inside my head said: "Be nice. Compliment her on her new jumpers. Say you love her". How was I supposed to know that this it NOT my core? That this is the shit that society programmed inside me? And this is where Mystery method came in. With the evolutionary theories, and the theory of social conditioning, it just opened my eyes. And then suddenly everything made sense. Suddenly I was able to hear my REAL core. Also I was able to spot my mistakes. Whenever I fucked up, I knew where I fucked up. People need to understand that Mystery Method is not about a collection of canned shit. They are there...for examples. Because without examples the chodiest of the chodies won't understand. What is important is the structure. The practical part.

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What I like in life is nothing more but living it.

I learned about the many labels er terminology for everything in 2010... when someone I was teaching asked me if I had ever heard of Mystery, Neil or the Game... I had said no... He lent me the book.. I read it.. it gave me the terms for what I did naturally... I checked out some other of the gurus... Incorporated some of their styling in my game.. Making it my own...


Rem... This really is a Game... So play it... Have fun... And dont be like that kid yellin and punchin the TV screen... Practice, Practice, Practice and get good...

Its actually 3 things.. A science, a game and an art form...

_________________
Keep doing that and I'll make you tremble...

Cutiest girl ask for more, unfortunately someone's creeping on my floor.. an empty glass a topless babe a knock at the door.. girlfriends girlfriends never could be more..

See my last point. If you don't learn the structure-natural way then you must learn the natural-structure way. Pioneers (like mystery) had to go in natural, then build a structure. I'm asking why we all insist on reinventing the wheel, when there's already a rocketship in the garage.

Either way you learn your skills the result is the same. A structured PUA approach will become more natural over time (less canned stuff) a natural PUA approach will eventuate in a more structured game due to trial and error. Yin and Yang!
I like that

I have no problem with Mystery.. I dont have to like everything he does.. such as huge hats and or magic.. etc...

His Method does work.. I should Learn it down pat canned shit and everything and then have someone film me using it in the field... I bet I can get great results using MM alone.. Id bet money on it..

Do I need it? no.. But I know it works if used right...

Where I differ from Mystery.. sure.. since I had no Guru's to turn to.. and back when I started.. I didnt call it "Pick Up Artist" when I thought of that term.. I always pictured that video game Leisure Suit Larry.. so for me.. It was just hookin up.. or takin girls home.. I didnt have a label for what I was doing.. I just knew I got good at it.. Then my popularity grew.. I was the one throwing parties.. all kinda of cool crazy shit... Then moved to FL.. in FL.. I had no real social value.. I knew nobody.. at all.. I had to go out lone wolf style and meet ALL NEW people..
I still live in FL and Its been one hell of an adventure.. Had a couple LTR's in FL.. The one I had for 3 years.. well... that one had me a lil screwed up when I got out of the relationship.. but sure enough.. I started me back up again.. sex.. fun.. etc..

Some things worked that I never thought would.. Real Bold shit.. like walking up from behind a girl I never met whom was quite hot wearin an outfit fully exposing her midrif and nice skirt.. Grabbing her by her waist while she was talking to her friends and saying into her ear "I Love Your Waist"... I took that girl home with me..
Did I startle her? sure I did.. startled her friends too...

I dont even really know the relevance of that story right now haha.. I had a point originally.. but lost it... whoops..


~Genuine

_________________
Keep doing that and I'll make you tremble...

Cutiest girl ask for more, unfortunately someone's creeping on my floor.. an empty glass a topless babe a knock at the door.. girlfriends girlfriends never could be more..

Interesting discussion but I disagree with the definition of "natural game" you guys are putting forward. Natural game is not making up you own routines, or going off script, you should be doing that even if you're tying to be a PUA.

"Natural game" or "being a natural" means you have an attractive sexual vibe around women. Something women will recognize before you even open your mouth.. It means you have the innate ability to flirt, calibrate and sexually escalate without having to worry about theories and routines. Naturals don't think, they just do.

Being a natural isn't lazy, it's a gift.

Natural game does NOT mean just completely winging it. You still want to make sure what you're saying has a purpose and that what you're saying is accomplishing the goals you need to accomplish.

The point is you can do this without scripts once you begin to become more comfortable freestyling a conversation, with the goals you need to accomplish, and with your own self confidence.

Being Alpha is great. Being smart is better. Being Alpha AND smart is best.

Notorious ~ Well Said

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Keep doing that and I'll make you tremble...

Cutiest girl ask for more, unfortunately someone's creeping on my floor.. an empty glass a topless babe a knock at the door.. girlfriends girlfriends never could be more..

I think we're all splitting hairs over the term alpha, and that's why this debate will never end.

My idea of a natural is somebody who has learnt this skill through trial and error and not following anybody else's structure.

Of course you have a purpose while you're speaking to somebody or doing anything. THAT is natural. It's also natural to learn what works and what doesn't.

Using Mystery's tried and tested methods might work, but it's not natural. It's only natural to him. In saying that, I don;t reckon he has that much success, in terms of what I call success, from my friends experience