Long story short, I broke up with my girlfriend, then had a bad of oneitis, she started seeing another guy, then I ignored her and got her back. There some backstory here if your interested, but its not necessary to read for this thread: ex-girlfriend-no-contact-rule-vt148993.html

Recently, ex-gf started coming over more and more frequently, and we'd fuck all the time. This past week she wasn't into it as much, nor was I into her. I think its because we started seeing each other again too much and I came under the false assumption that I don't need to ignore her as much or play THAT hard to get or whatever -- basically, I got comfortable.

Anyhow, before I was about to fuck her this week (right before things seemed to start going downhill), she asked me:
Her: "Wait. Do you want a relationship?" [of course she's naked when she asks me this and is ready to jump on my cock]
Me: "I don't know."
Her: "Ok well I don't."
Me: "Ok, me neither."

Was this a shit test that I just failed, and how do I answer it correctly the next time?

When we met up again this week for dinner (we each paid for our own food), she asked me if I cared if she started seeing another guy. I said no. Is this the correct answer, or is this another shit test? In truth, I don't really care as long as I can fuck her whenever I want, but I feel that the attraction is slipping. Perhaps I go back to hard-to-get and forget she exists for a while?

A positive note on this: I feel so much better about myself now then the first time I did this, and I'm glad I got her back, but its made me realize she isn't right for me, at least not in this stage of my life. I would still like to fuck-buddy her, and I realize that I need to start getting some solid consistent action in order to keep her off my mind. If I'm getting laid consistently, I could really care less about that "special girl."

I don't think you failed the first one. Maybe you didn't pass with flying colors. But you didn't say yes and that is important. I would have said "the only relationship i want is my dick in your pussy" and then fucked the sanity out of her haha.

You passed the second test by saying no. Of course the usual advice is coming: game other girls along side her. If she can see other people so can you. Show her that you are high value and lots of women love you. That'll get her changing real quick

That's awesome lol, i will try that next time.

You just told her it's okay for her to ride the cock carousel, so long as you get a turn time to time. Even if you don't want to bring her home to mom, you don't know who these other dudes are and you don't know where they've been. Do you really think it's the correct answer?

_________________
"Let me ask you something. If the rule you followed brought you to this, of what use was the rule?"

I didn't say that, i told her i didn't care if she started seeing another guy. End of story. I didn't bring up "us" our my needs.

How would you have handled the situation differently?

If you don't want to be with her, walk. There was always going to be one last roll in the hay; may as well be now. Having an open relationship with her is all well and good, but if she's seeing other dudes, as a man, how is that attractive to you? Other men like to roll the dice more recklessly I guess, but you're risking a permanent infection over a prize you only wanted temporarily.

_________________
"Let me ask you something. If the rule you followed brought you to this, of what use was the rule?"

I may have relapsed here a little bit.

Ex was over my place a few days ago to watch TV with me. She told me she was mad because I didn't return her calls and she'd always have to call me to hang out, etc. I had returned from a trip the previous day and didn't return her call until that afternoon.

I reached out to put her arm around her so she'd come cuddle up with me. She gave me the "uggh, but I'm still mad at you, but I still want to fuck you face."

A short while later I started making out with her. Then she said let's wait until the TV show is over. I didn't particularly care, so I waited.

In retrospect, I think waiting was a big mistake because it put her in the driver's seat. I find that I can usually just plow through these objections ("Shut up, you know you want to kiss me, so just do it already"), and I continued to escalate by kissing her, but the problem is that if I don't solve the underlying problem, I will always encounter LMR, and I am not sure how to get over that -- Some advice on this specific part would be appreciated. Maybe I actually need to address the problems here with a heart-to-heart? Ask her what's really bothering her?

After the TV show was over, she said she did not want to have sex with me that night, and then I told her it was fine, I didn't need to have sex with her. I tried again anyways, but she told me "It's not sexy when you try too hard." This kind of hit me hard, because I was feeling on top of the world before this, oozing sexual confidence and the mindframe that I could get anything. It sucks because I knew that in my mind, she wanted me badly, yet here I am getting this resistance. What's worse is that it is forcing me to second guess myself... I knew I was right, but maybe I am not? Maybe she didn't want me as badly as I think she did? Or there is something I should have just said that I am missing here.

At some point she started crying that night, and we talked about random stuff, and she said that she was stressed out. She's working two jobs now and she's also about to lose her health insurance, which she is upset about. I just consoled her and told her everything would be fine.

I sent her a text the next day just saying "How are you doing?".

Her: [6:29PM] "Good went shopping but driving now I'll call you later".
Her: [10:03] "Heyz what are you doing?"
Me: [11:17PM] "In (different town, 45 min away)"
Her: [11:22PM] "Stinker."

She texted me the next day
Her: [7:16PM] "Are you still in [other town]?"
Me: [7:53PM] "just got back."
Me: [8:12PM] "What are you doing tonight?"
Her: [8:13PM] "Idk my friend wants to go to the [local bar] but idk when. You?"
Me: [8:17PM] "I'm going out to the bars in a little bit, do you want to come?"
Her: [8:17PM] "In [town we live in]?"
Me: [8:19PM] "Yeah we are drinking at my place now, we'll probably leave in like half an hour to an hour"
Her: [8:19PM] "Who's with you"
Her: [9:10PM] "I'm leaving now"

So she came over and we were hanging out for a bit. I started to put my arm around her while we were sitting on the couch and then she told me that she was not going to sleep over tonight. She told me that she might end up sleeping at her friend's place (a guy) or at her place.

This kind of got to me, and I wish it hadn't. I tried to play it off like it didn't affect me, but it really got to me. Keeping up the frame that you don't care when you really do is a difficult internal struggle, and I'm not sure how other PUAs do it; I must be missing something.

It wasn't the fact that she was seeing another guy that bothered me, it was that I was being demoted in place of someone else. And even worse, I knew she was playing games specifically with the intent to push my buttons, but I didn't know how to respond. The conversation ultimately ended up with me getting mad, then she said she thought she was going to go, I told her that's probably for the best. She said "Why does it matter, you said you didn't want to be in a relationship (the ugly beast roars its head)" and I said "When we hang out, I'd like you to come back with me". I also said we couldn't be "just friends". Things turned ugly, I told her that I should have listened to myself, because I thought she was "toxic".

What I meant by this was that when I started to feel good about myself, she would push my buttons to bring me down. So either I wasn't doing as good as I thought I was, or she was just doing it because that's what women do(???).

Do I owe her an apology (for calling her toxic)? The thing is, I just wanted to call her out on her bullshit, because I knew she was doing this stuff just to push me into a relationship with her. The reason I do not want a relationship right now is because I am enjoying all of these new experiences, learning new things and meeting new people.

Any advice on how to handle the guy situation and LMR would be appreciated.

Also, I think puaninja's advice from another thread (help-please-vt153808.html) is spot on:
I don't think I handled stage 3 correctly.

Do you owe her an apology? Who knows. Do you want a relationship with her or not? Do you want her to not date other guys, or fuck other guys, or not?

Dr Jones was right on. If you give a fuck, you don't have to play games with her. You shouldn't tell her, you should just show her through action. And if she's actually gf material, the rest will fall into place. If she isn't gf material, then she'll drift away, and you can remain aloof because you know she isn't gf material.

Nobody I know wants to be in a relationship that is a constant power struggle or a bunch of never ending games. Playing the game is just how you make someone like you enough to get close. Once you're in the relationship, the games largely should be over. If they aren't, you need to assess if she is a freak or an emotionally manipulative woman.

It's one thing to have oneitis and think that you will never find a better girl anywhere ever. It's another to show a gf you like her and want her to be on your cock when she's horny rather than someone elses.

That being said, if you know she's not gf material, and you just want her for sex every now and then, then so be it. But you can't expect to have that from her and her not also be free to play the field. That's part of the FWB or open relationship.

Listen to Dr. Jones' posts. What do you want from her?

Thanks for the thoughtful response. I agree with what you've said.

The reason I became a student of pickup and a forum member here was to get her back. I accomplished that, but in doing so my eyes have been opened, and I've enjoyed what I've learned so far. My horizons are expanding, and I'm just kind of sailing out into the unknown at this point. I am enjoying this journey (even with its constant ups and downs), and I think that ultimately I will become a better person because of it, but its unsettling to go into the dark not knowing what awaits you on the other side. And I feel like the price to take this trip is to leave my past life behind. I'm trying to have it both ways, but I don't know if that's possible.

I've also had enough one-night stands to know that meaningless sex is not all its made out to be. It can be fun, but its much more fulfilling to have sex with someone that you share an emotional connection with... someone that appreciates you for who you are, cooks you dinner, asks you about your dreams and your ambitions in life. Running a bunch of canned lines and responses doesn't get you that, but it gets your foot in the door and it gives you the practice you need for when you finally do meet that person. But until then, I feel this emptiness inside of me.

Serious question: How do you know when a girl is girlfriend material?

You know you've found your girl when you build rapport with her, and the rapport she is giving you is (cliché:) beautiful, and the emotional connections you two make with eachother fulfill you, just as well as her, as a person. That's when you know!

I've been doing some reading on pickup in general and came across this thread, which I think would have been a much better way to handle this situation (in case anyone runs into a similar situation in their future): post685774.html?hilit=presupposition#p685774

The prominent part from this post is: I'm not sure how to respond directly to her "I'm not sleeping over your place tonight," but I think the correct concept is in the linked thread.