Disclaimer to guys: If you're dating a girl and are afraid of asking her a question, run. If you must pretend to be a player to keep a girl interested, run. Don't get me wrong, there are many women who you can make your gf and keep them with aloofness, dodging conversations and pretending that girls want you. But there are also many women who will stay with you because you beat them or because they like to think you're cheating on them. If you can't have honest conversations with your chick, she's not having honest conversations with you. If you're playing games and not being yourself, she's playing games too. The girls who like you more for your lay count rather than your honesty and directness are the ones who will have you posting here on why she cheated on you with another player. If she chooses you because you're in demand, or you're so aloof, she'll leave once you want to have serious conversations with her. Life is too short to spend with a girl that you need to KEEP with games.

^ Post of the week? This getting her with games is one thing, but keeping her with dumb bullshit is another. If you have a serious conversation with your girl and are honest about your wants, thats called being a fucking man, playing dumb fucking games is not.

I finally wrapped my head around what chantos has been trying to get at. Neo already pointed out that he comes from the mentality of having to get the girl by any means necessary, so that’s a major issue right there. So he’s willing to accept unacceptable behaviors with the goal of getting the girl in the end. When I say unacceptable behavior, I’m speaking of anything that I as a man don’t want to have happen with the woman or women that I’m seeing at the time.

Secondly, his problem is that he confuses “tell them what you think” and “don’t accept what you don’t want” as being emotional. Common problems with guys who aspire to be PUAs believe that you can’t show emotion. It’s okay to show a woman that you have emotions as long as you also show her that you are not ruled by them(have emotions without being emotional), thus the ability to walk away from situations that you do not want. The aloof, mysterious, playerish types try to mask that they have emotions. While masking your emotions and not communicating, you inadvertently allow the women that you are pursuing to display unacceptable behaviors. How is she supposed to know what you find unacceptable if it’s not communicated in some way? Then you’ll see silly posts on if a guy should punish a girl for bad behavior. By making your boundaries known a girl will fall in line(it's part of her qualifying herself and accepting the submissive role), if you are building attraction correctly, and there is no need to punish her.

Finally, he believes that it’s a good idea to freeze out a girl that’s asked to slow down because of another guy. If she is asking for this because of another guy, it is likely that she has more of an emotional bond with the other guy. It also could be her way of saying that, “we’re done, but this is my nice way of saying it so that your feelings won’t be hurt.” So if she has an emotional bond with another guy and he’s fucking her, he is going to definitely get the girl while the other guy is freezing her out. The big problem here is when you sit back and watch another guy get the girl while you are getting friend zoned, you are enforcing an AFC behavior trait. There's no way around that. It’s not good advice, in my opinion.

The dead horse has been beaten sufficiently.

_________________
mpuaforum.proboards.com

Ok, let me break it all down for you:
You're approaching the right track. I'll concede that my way is more "get her at all costs" and isn't nearly as swift or clean as invoking the mantra "don't accept anything I don't want to have happen" (aka don't accept her slowing down if I don't want to), and nexting the girl. But when you say I'm willing to accept unacceptable behaviors with the goal of getting the girl in the end, you assume (and thus advise from the vantage) that the woman has done something "unacceptable" --and you can soften or modify that definition all you want, what I'm saying still applies-- but you assume that she's done something unacceptable that wasn't all the while a product of OP's own, erroneous action in the tender stages of their courtship. This is unsound. A mistake on your part. Tantamount to telling a child "never let anyone bully you" when the child is the one picking fights with older kids on the playground.

The woman is simply responding to a flaw in OP's game somewhere in these early weeks. Your advice fails utterly to operate from that perspective. Rather, you present OP with a general maxim (do what you want), then loosely instruct him on how to apply that general maxim to this specific case (look her in the eyes and tell her you're not interested in her if she's dating other guys).

Look, if OP wants to next her... I'm all for that. It's easier, and almost always better. Most women are interchangeable. But you, and others like you, are quick to close the curtain on *every* woman, as though they're *all* exactly the same. They aren't. Some are worth putting a little more effort in. That's OP's call. In this scenario, I am comfortable advising OP to pursue if he believes she's worth it, because, as I've mentioned, OP seems to have put himself in this position by moving too fast. If you were a girl and suddenly you're dating a guy without having known him even 3 months, are you a piece of shit for thinking things are moving too fast? I wouldn't say so. He should have waited until *she* told *him* she wanted to be in a relationship. Then there's no way she could say "slow down" without being a total hypocrite and therefore nextable.
This is completely out of left field. I would never advise anyone not to show emotion per se. Only that certain emotions should be minimized in a fledgling relationship: sadness; weakness; anger; any emotion communicating dependency or need; and, in my opinion and to my continued real world success, seriousness. I have never lost a girl's interest by *not being serious enough* the first month of a relationship. Even in moments such as this that appear to demand it, maintaining an aloof, "I don't give a fuck" frame has never, ever done me any sort of harm, and has only increased the girl's attraction. (He doesn't even care. Why doesn't he even care?) Being so alarmingly direct, as you advise OP to be, so early on, shows your entire hand: "I want to date you exclusively. I don't want other guys to have you. I want to control you. You are very valuable to me. I need the security of a relationship very quickly (so I must not have options). I am intimidated by and uncomfortable with the thought of you sleeping with other men. I will leave if I cannot rush into a relationship with you, and I will rush into a relationship with someone else." All of this at 3 weeks in. Doomed, so obviously doomed.

Jack, the big mistake you're making is that you're giving advice to OP as though he is currently in a position of power in the relationship, and more importantly as though he did nothing to remove himself from a position of power. He isn't and he did. That's what needs to be addressed. She's telling him to slow down. She's controlling the tempo. The reason why I am advising OP the way I am is because I immediately saw that he had committed certain errors that led to her controlling the tempo, and that giving him your advice of an ultimatum would fail to get the girl, virtually guaranteed, because it wasn't coming from the person in power. If you want to keep a woman, you do not present her with an ultimatum when she says she wants to slow down, three weeks into a relationship. You don't. She will simply leave. If you are ok with that, that's fine. But that's damn sure not the way to keep her.

I have no other problem with the content of your advice beyond the instance in which you tell OP to give the woman an ultimatum. Your other words are fine, if a bit obvious. He should ultimately not be afraid to lose her (those these words are often used to sugarcoat flaws in game; if the girl is dictating whether you lose her, you should at least be concerned). He should ultimately do what he wants even if he loses her. But I maintain and will continue to maintain that OP should not give the girl a take-it-or-leave it ultimatum that reinforces moving too quickly with women and even risks rewarding that behavior. Bro do you even lift? Are you trying to help the guy or not? It's like you feint to advise him on how to get the girl with a poor tactic (ultimatum), then mask that with "don't be afraid to lose her." Just tell the guy to next her and show him where he fucked up if that's your approach.


1. You're obviously not getting friend-zoned if you're freezing her out. There's no contact. No "friend." You're at worst a former lover.
2. Rushing to preserve your exclusivity with a woman is infinitely more AFC than not giving a fuck and communicating it.
3. If she's already ensconced with another guy, continuing to contact her whatsoever will push her further away and communicate neediness and eventually desperation. You're "that annoying guy I was hooking up with for a while who can't take a hint." And if you're not going to keep contacting her, then once she rejects this ultimatum you give her, you're in the exact same spot as you would have been if you had just gone directly to the freeze out, only your hand is played. Thus she associates you with a man who stubbornly rushes into relationships and refuses to back down. How on earth does that make you more attractive, that you're dedicated to rushing into things? It doesn't. The notion that you are somehow more attractive by steadfastly being less attractive makes no sense whatsoever.
4. Throughout this entire process OP should be gaming other girls. As soon as she wanted to slow down he should have started exploring other options (which he did, bravo). But to imply that I would advise OP to "sit back and watch another guy get the girl" is inaccurate at best.

I see exactly where you're trying to steer this: "If the girl likes another guy, and you freeze her out, she's just going to continue right on with the other guy, dumbass." Not if you've fucked her better than he has. Not if he makes stupid mistakes that you're not gonna make anymore. Not if she sees you're fucking a hotter girl. She'll absolutely come knocking unless 1) the guy is simply better for her than you are, 2) a third guy enters the picture who is better than both of you, or 3) you fuck it up by forcing her to either be with you and accept a rushed relationship or move on. That is not a fucking option for this guy and should never have been mentioned.

You give yourself the best chance if you freeze her out. That doesn't mean it's a good chance. But what you do not do, what will kill your chances guaranteed, is chase her, give her ridiculous ultimatums where she either goes free or remains in a relationship she doesn't even want, create serious environments and communicate serious feelings that make you look like a needy little bitch, take things way too fast soon, and fail to learn from the mistakes that put you into this entire situation.

_________________
You must be overconfident and cocksure, even if you haven't got a god damn thing in the world going for you. And you must fail with women until you do not fear the possibility of failure, whereupon you will succeed wildly.

chantos, just go back and pay attention to what OP asks. He knows he messed up in the beginning. No one, including himself has argued that. Any advice to that is for nothing. His question is how to recover and more specifically, what can he do to allow her to slow down without allowing her to fuck other dudes?

That is the only question here. So which of the advice do you go with?
or

_________________
mpuaforum.proboards.com

Here is why your freezeout doesn't work in the real world chantos. Let's say the girl is not ready for a relationship. Let's say she just got out of a relationship and wants to be single and see/date/fuck other guys. You freeze her out do the whole player thing. Jealousy is a powerful emotion. Fear of loss is a powerful emotion. So she sees OP with a hotter girl out one night, and OP's pull back triggers jealousy and fear of losing a great guy. Her jealousy is stronger than her urge to see other guys. She folds, starts texting you more, doing nice shit for you, wants to tie you down. A few weeks of OP push pulling her...viola...she asks him to be her bf. Happy ending thanks to Chantos' advice. BUT....all you did was trigger an emotion (jealousy) to overpower another emotion (her wanting to be single). She wasn't ready to be single; she just got overpowered by a stronger emotion. It's like couples in a failing relationship who have a child together to save the relationship. Once the initial happy pregnancy/child birth stage is done, the old emotions come back. So a month later, her feelings of wanting to be single come back. She cheats or dumps you to be single.

The reason I say to talk is to get an idea of where her head is. You guys try and trick girls into having emotions, to get them to forget their other emotions. It's not an ultimatum to say "Oh, you want to date other guys...ok, if you want that fine, but it's not for me. If you can date other guys then we're not on the same page. Bye" See...you think everything you say to a girl is some tactic to keeping her. You think that if you tell a girl, hey we in far too different places right now, we shouldn't see each other...it's a tactic or ultimatum to get her to agree to where you are and date you. It's not. In fact, even if the girl changes her mind right there and says "no, you know what, you're leaving me? actually I don't want to be single, let's continue relationship land, my advice would be to next. It's not something you say to get her to change her mind because her choosing you won't be sincere. If you don't want to date other people, and she wants to, guess what, you guys are a bad fit. When you hear that, you realize that the connection that you thought was there, isn't there.

This guy killed it! If this were in a pua forum, then yeah use jealousy and all those tactics just to smash a girl. But if you're looking for a relationship, doing that stuff will just end up bad. Listen to Neo.

Have you been in a lot of long term relationships? It doesn't really work that way. There's just as much, if not more, of a chance that her feelings of wanting to be single go straight out the window once she starts falling for you. Women are far, far more malleable than you're thinking here. And again, you're not going to be in PUA cocky jerk mode all the time once things really get going. You'll start building comfort, bonding, becoming more 3-dimensional... all the stuff you're advocating for, but you advocate for it too soon. That's really the only difference. I'm just pushing for guys to remain in the attraction stage longer, to be less serious early on, to make girls chase them, and to let the girl communicate when it's time to begin the relationship, none of which OP did here. I think you're equivocating relationships across the board; there's a HUGE difference between being with someone exclusively for 4 months and being with someone exclusively for 3 weeks. You don't have these serious communications and play your hand this early on because it murders attraction, something that at 3 weeks in is still crucial. You do it after she says she loves you, after you've had a lot more experiences with one another.

(By the way Neo, why are we assuming the girl actually wants to be single, and OP didn't just fail to attract her sufficiently, causing her to lose interest? OP even admits he moved way too fast and showed too much interest too soon. It's pretty clear that this girl wants something more than what you're saying [otherwise she wouldn't have agreed to be OP's gf in the beginning.])

It also seems like you've never fully, wholly trusted and loved a really great girl, had complete communication, been best friends, all that jazz-- and then gotten cheated on or left for another guy all the same. And it seems like you've never gamed a really great girl, been less trusting of her, been aloof, been far less communicative and transparent-- and had the girl remain completely faithful and loyal to you for years. Guys who experience both of those are a bit more wily, a bit less able to subscribe to the whole "communication is key" approach. You may indeed have experienced both, but I don't see many guys who have advocating for such direct communication and openness.
Well what you're doing here is assuming the girl wants to date other guys and then going with that end of the ultimatum. So basically you're skipping the first step, where you ask her if she wants to date other guys, then she responds "yes," then you say, "Oh, you want to date other guys..."

It's still an ultimatum: Date other guys without me, or start a relationship with me and don't date other guys.
Huh? How is telling a girl "we shouldn't see each other" a tactic to keep her?? It's absolutely not. It's nexting her. Which is exactly why I advised OP not to do that if he actually wants to keep the girl. Very confused.
Again, you're imposing your own, male, logical way of thinking onto an entirely different entity. Women simply do not think this black and white. They are foremost governed by impulse and emotion. She wants whatever feels good, emotionally and physically. Whatever stimulates her. If chasing you and trying to tie you down becomes more entertaining to her than dating other, less interesting men... she'll do it until you give her reason to give up all hope of attaining you. This is why OP realized he'd made crucial errors early on by being the one who asked for the relationship, being the one who was overly available, etc.

_________________
You must be overconfident and cocksure, even if you haven't got a god damn thing in the world going for you. And you must fail with women until you do not fear the possibility of failure, whereupon you will succeed wildly.

If we completely narrow the discussion to that aspect, then he can either do it my way, risk the girl fucking other guys while maintaining the best chance of keeping her in the long run (meanwhile he is simultaneously able to fuck other girls and move on); or, he can do it your way, lose the girl (who then by default ends up fucking other guys), and move on, with a lesser chance of keeping her in the long run, because she now associates him with a man who rushes into relationships.

Your way has its merits, but I think my way casts a wider net, and avoids a very unattractive label. I'd go with my way.

_________________
You must be overconfident and cocksure, even if you haven't got a god damn thing in the world going for you. And you must fail with women until you do not fear the possibility of failure, whereupon you will succeed wildly.

This is why I said that you'd rather be right than anything else.

First you say my advice is bad. Then you say it's spot on if he understands what he's done wrong(which he has since the beginning). Then you say it's only "yoda-isms" and mantra's. Then you say it's good advice if he follows your advice first and then my advice(which makes absolutely no sense). Now my advice, according to you, has merits. You are all over the place.

You tell us that you've been in the exact situation that OP then you made it all work out on your own terms and then a few posts later say that no girl ever does this to you, ever. Do you understand all of your inconsistencies and contradictions? Do you get why you are not credible?

Everyone that has posted has disagreed with your advice, but your pride won't let you admit that it is terrible advice. You'd rather fuck the OP over and put him in the exact position that he said that he does not want to be in just so you can boost your ego or succumb to a narcissistic tendency.

_________________
mpuaforum.proboards.com

Yeah, I'm still confused on how do what you want isn't concrete but fuck her well and kick her out is somehow concrete. How to fuck her well. How to find other girls? How to find hotter girls, day game, night game, indirect direct? You give the guy advice that introduces hundreds of questions and then say something else is not concrete? I don't know if op has good game to where he can just find a hotter girl or whether his sex skills are amazing or average or whatever. But chantos threw advice that's basically, I know u want her to be exclusive but go find hotter women, get them into you, be a stud in bed... Thats all easy simple and concrete.

C'mon man, now you're just throwing shit around completely out of context. Your advice is bad if he actually wants to get the girl. Your advice spot-on if he actually wants to 1) do what he wants at any cost and 2) wants to force her to either be with him exclusively or date other guys without him. It's good advice if he follows my practical advice while maintaining your overall first theory of not being afraid to lose the girl. Your advice has merits in that OP, while losing the girl, is not afraid to lose the girl and is ultimately choosing to do what he wants, though he loses the girl.

I have been in OP's exact position but played it differently, because instead of conceding that I'd moved too fast into the relationship I framed it around the larger issue I had of being exclusive because I did not want an STD. The girl almost gave me the "slow it down" talk but I quickly reframed and indicated that I had no interest in being in an LTR with her, just didn't want an STD. I gave her no indications that I wasn't out fucking other women myself. I specifically told her I didn't give a fuck if she slept with other guys, just to tell me so we could use protection since we'd been fucking without condoms by that point. Then I froze her the fuck out and got her chasing me again by gaming other women. Ok? And you know what? She ended up being my girlfriend. Did she fuck another guy in that time period? Maybe. But she chased me all the same, and after a month or two she told me she wanted to be my girlfriend and fell wildly in love with me and we had a great, fun, healthy LTR. That's a real-world example of my way working. If you're such a fucking badass let's hear yours. Oh, you fucked up gaming a girl, told her it's your way or the highway, got ditched, tucked your tail between your legs and moved on? Yeah you're the man.

I'm not fucking OP over whatsoever. Don't fucking attribute that to me again. I have said numerous times, "Here's the best way to get the girl, but only do this if she's worth it and she likely isn't." I have said numerous times, "Nexting her is the easiest, cleanest thing to do." I have said numerous times, "Game other women on the side. Have options."

Meanwhile you conveniently did not even address my last post, just created a bullshit strawman argument in an attempt to discredit me. If you prove me wrong, you prove me wrong. I've lost plenty of arguments and have no problem with it. But you're not doing that.

I will repeat my argument that addresses exactly what you told me to address (I'm playing your game here Jack don't pussy out):

His question is how to recover and more specifically, what can he do to allow her to slow down without allowing her to fuck other dudes?

Again, by not giving her an ultimatum, by remaining aloof, reducing contact, and basically reverting to attraction-mode, you do risk her fucking other guys. I'm not saying you don't and I've never said that. But guess what? If you straight-up tell her you're leaving if she doesn't stay exclusive, *after the fact that she's told you she wants to slow it down*, she's gone. Because, for the fucking thousandth time, you're pressing her toward a relationship she is already indicating she doesn't want. That's never, ever going to work. So if you do that, she's gonna leave you for good. And fuck other guys. Last time I checked that's not recovering, which is specifically what OP asked you.

In both of our scenarios, there's a risk the girl fucks other dudes. But your way not only exposes OP to that risk, it also harms his long term chances with her because, for the fucking thousandth time, you're the guy that pressed her toward a relationship she'd already indicated she didn't want. That's not attractive. You can't be strong-willed about a weak ultimatum and expect that to attract her down the line. That's crystal clear to me and I have no idea why it isn't to you. So why on earth would you choose your way and give yourself no chance over choosing my way and giving yourself a chance. In both scenarios you're gaming other girls. In both scenarios you can always move on.

Now if you can convince me otherwise I'll gladly let you know. I care about being right because I legitimately think your advice is wrong if OP wants to "recover and allow her to slow down without allowing her to fuck other dudes."

_________________
You must be overconfident and cocksure, even if you haven't got a god damn thing in the world going for you. And you must fail with women until you do not fear the possibility of failure, whereupon you will succeed wildly.

Whoa whoa whoa lol, we could go into that spiral forever. "Do what you want" isn't concrete in a certain context. Obviously "fuck her well" isn't concrete in a certain context too. But "Do what you want" doesn't address how to attract the girl. And that's what I'm focusing on. "Fucking her well" attracts the girl. "Gaming other girls" attracts the girl. That's concrete stuff on how to attract a girl.

And I'm not saying any of that stuff is simple bro, just saying it's how you attract the girl. It's specific advice on attracting women. Whereas, "do what you want"... shit man, that could be used in any context, your career, your hobbies, etc. It's inner game speak. It's theory. My stuff is practical advice, though not necessarily easy practical advice.

_________________
You must be overconfident and cocksure, even if you haven't got a god damn thing in the world going for you. And you must fail with women until you do not fear the possibility of failure, whereupon you will succeed wildly.

And here is where you are making no sense and you just don't get it. Your assertion is that there is another guy and hence her request to slow down. It leads to a simple question:

If one of the two guys freezes her out, who is fucking that girl?

If you say that anyone other than the guy freezing her out is fucking that girl, your advice is useless based on what OP stated that he wants. There is no way around that. And again, that's why I say you don't understand what a freeze out is used for. The thing that makes it useless most is that there is another guy in the equation.

Here's a bonus question for you.

Let's say you were fucking a girl and she's interested in you while she was seeing another guy. She is trying to decide between the two of you. She tells the other guy to slow down and for whatever reason he decides that he's going to freeze her out. Which guy has the advantage in this situation, you or the other guy?

_________________
mpuaforum.proboards.com