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Got called on busyness/false time-constraints
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Author:  LaserJet [ Sun Aug 24, 2008 11:10 pm ]
Post subject:  Got called on busyness/false time-constraints
I'm working on this pretty girl as a sort of long-term project (She's got some major confidence and boy issues, so I'm more comfy doing this a tad slower), and today I got called on how I always make things sound like she only wants it.
I've been seeing her before, but it turned out to be a big LJBF. I simply walked away and hadn't seen her for about three months, and we've got in touch again about three weeks ago. Decided to give it another shot, and apparently I am doing it better this time.
Today I went over there on my way to my parents as a friend that had crashed at my place had borrowed her bike, and somehow got dragged into lunch together and a movie with some other friends. Now during the night and afterwards I got quite a bit of signals that gave me the impression I was doing ok, some that I noticed myself, but some that she herself mentioned:
- Because the cinema was completely empty we decided to move a few rows, but when the seating order changed and someone was about to take my seat next to her (I couldn't really take charge yet wait for her, could I?), she insisted that we kept the seating order (thus having me next to her).
- When I left she said that I always gave the impression that I was so busy (which I am nowadays, leaving for a two month period of work in Paris).
- When I later phoned her and called her on that comment and said I could prolly squeeze out some time for her tomorrow evening, she said I always had a way of making things sound like she only wanted it.

Now to me this sounds like good indicators, but as she is a HB9 and has a lot of male goons/girlfriends, I would appreciate to hear your thoughts about it.
Also I responded to the "You always make it sound like I'm the one that wants it" with a simple "I wouldn't offer if I didn't enjoy spending time with you, would I?" and some more comforting words as I she'd told me before she's always really insecure about having feelings for someone and how men always end up hurting her if she shows those feelings.
Was that a proper response , or should I have kept the whole "I enjoy your company too" thing a tad more mysterious ?

Thanks in advance
Author:  HockeyMonkey89 [ Sun Aug 24, 2008 11:31 pm ]
Post subject: 
STOP being her psychiatrist. This is what gets guys in the LJBF situations. She definitely sounds alot like a sad little bunny I happen to know, and i ended up fclosing mine. Although since then I learned that the fun girls who aren't always trying to talk about their self esteem problems are alot better targets. If you're still interested in her this is what you need to do. Always see other girls when you have a specific target. Now, whenever you see your HB9 be ridiculously happy(just a very fun guy) and indifferent of HER mood. But keep up with negging her and the usual attraction routines. Needless to say, DON'T follow her around, if the previous steps are done right she'll ALWAYS want to "sit next to you" in any situation. From here, kino escalate and do the rest of the stuff your body already knows how to naturally. Hope this helps.


PW
Author:  LaserJet [ Mon Aug 25, 2008 7:33 am ]
Post subject: 
Quote:
STOP being her psychiatrist. This is what gets guys in the LJBF situations. She definitely sounds alot like a sad little bunny I happen to know, and i ended up fclosing mine. Although since then I learned that the fun girls who aren't always trying to talk about their self esteem problems are alot better targets. If you're still interested in her this is what you need to do. Always see other girls when you have a specific target. Now, whenever you see your HB9 be ridiculously happy(just a very fun guy) and indifferent of HER mood. But keep up with negging her and the usual attraction routines. Needless to say, DON'T follow her around, if the previous steps are done right she'll ALWAYS want to "sit next to you" in any situation. From here, kino escalate and do the rest of the stuff your body already knows how to naturally. Hope this helps.


PW
Thanks for the advice :)
I've been trying to keep a positive frame to everything, and usually whenever she talks about negative crap (exbf,dad being an arse, whatever), I try to comfort her but also move on to another more happy subject somewhere half-way. I'll see if I can up that to the "ridiculously happy" state you described.

One thing that does bother me is that sometimes she seems to need me to be a bit more comforting. I've had several accounts where we had a great time the night before, but she was all flakey when I spoke her later on. Once I called her on that, she started talking about how men always ended up hurting her if she came too close, and she's afraid of that. Last time this happened I simply took her somewhere private and comforted her about it. Would this be the "being her psych" like you described? Because although I do agree that it might not have been a wise thing to just do, in her case I do get the feeling that it helped on the flakey and insecure part.
Author:  HockeyMonkey89 [ Mon Aug 25, 2008 9:21 am ]
Post subject: 
That is exactly what I meant by being her psychiatrist. You don't want to be her, as we say, emotional tampon. You want to make her feel so energized with you that she'd forget her problems. Not the other way around. The way things are going it sounds like she calls you more often when shes depressed. And on the days she feels happy she spends her time with her other friends. That line she's feeding you about not wanting to get hurt sounds like her way of trying to keep you in the LJBF state. In my experience, fun people are risk takers. I suggest you show her just how fun you are. You know those Hollywood moments where the bad ass hero takes the shy princess by the hand and leads her outside her comfort zone? That's the role you need to take in here. That is what I meant by "ridiculously happy." Maybe what I should have said was "ridiculous AND happy." It's good that you're trying to help her out. As you can see there are many different ways of doing it. Some ways lead to getting laid and some don't. Good luck.


PW
Author:  LaserJet [ Mon Aug 25, 2008 10:01 pm ]
Post subject: 
Alright, saw her again tonight, and although I'm still uncertain on where this is going, I can say that I'm moderately happy about it.
As I'm really interested in your response on this, I'll write a small report about it. Would you be so kind as to give it a quick glimpse ? I realize that it will probably be quite a bit of text, but I would really appreciate some more feedback :)

(phone call)
I said I'd call her around 4-ish, but got caught up in some things and wasn't free untill 4:45-ish. Called her but she didn't answer: I was a bit scared she'd flake on me again, but instead of freaking out about it I just send a polite text message saying I'd done most of the things I had planned for today, ready to go do something fun, and she should call me when she's available. Felt like it took ages, but she called back after 15 minutes (which is kind of a milestone, as she used to be dead scared of simply calling people a week or two ago, and would've preffered txt). At first she didn't really say anything (basically "Hi, (my name) speaking" "Hi, it's (her name)..."), so I cracked some jokes and tried to keep the conversation light. She said she had some stuff to do, but would prolly be done in 45min. Simply told her that was fine as I could use some extra studying, and told her to just send me a quick message when she leaves so I can expect her.

about an hour after that I got a message "Just left, will be there shortly", and at 6 I heard something at the back gate as I was studying in the garden, and scared the hell out of her when I peeked over it and greeted her (she was busy trying to call me :P). As I'd only had a really light lunch, and was pretty hungry, I immediately put away my books, and did a quick search on something tasty to cook. Threw in some keywords, picked something I'd never made before, to which she immediately said "Yeah, sounds like fun". So printed it, made a quick round on what I already had in the house, and left for the supermarket. Basically there I was in a bit of a hurry and took the lead rather aggressively up to a point where she asked "If she could join in on the shopping" instead of just following me. I kinda responded like I hadn't noticed, and ask her to look for something while I take another corridor to get something else. She seemed slightly agitated, but I quickly changed that mood by walking to the drinks and asking "You like that stuff right?" (point at ice-tea clear-green orange) "Ehm, actually I always have the lemon one" "Hmmm, let's just take this one, see if it's any good, I'm feeling adventurous" and she seemed to cheer up. I'm pretty confident that I got rid of that mood when we were cracking jokes again at the counter ;)
Cooking part was pretty fun, basically just started cooking, doing my stuff and just striking up some conversation with her, and she kinda started helping on her own.
Didn't make a big deal out of it, but for myself (I'm posting in the newbie forum for a reason) I was pretty proud: Normally I'd have just followed around the woman in the supermarket, and let her take the lead at cooking. Might've been a bit over the top like this (especially the comment about her joining in worried me a bit), but it sure beats having her lead ;)

Over dinner I asked if she'd already seen "that new pixar movie", to which she responded she indeed didn't see it, but couldn't make it too late, and would prefer just staying at my place and having some fun. I feel that a more pro-active stance and just saying something "Oh come on, it'll be fun" would've been more appropriate, but I currently have a pretty bad cold, and we'd already been to the movies yesterday with a group, so instead we went for a night of wii/bad drama/part of oceans 12.
At the end of the night she said she would leave at 10, made a joke about how I would throw her out at 10 precise, but as she was semi-dozing away at 9:50, I simply turned off the TV and said "come on, I'll bring you home". She said she'd come on her own and would find her own way back, so I told her I'd just show her where the mailbox was. At our way out, I spotted a cat that we'd seen and cuddled before, and alerted her to it after which she immedaitely started cuddling it again and started this story about how she also wants a cat like that when she grows up. Basically she tried to stall there for 15 minutes, me cracking jokes about how the cat favours me as it came my way. Also as she was down with the cat would crack some jokes about how she would be my favourite cat and scratched her behind her ears like you would a cat which she seemed to like.
Basically after dropping off the mail she had to post, I gave her a big hug.

So to summarize, some things that I think went good:
- Showed her that I'm not afraid to take the lead with anything (still working on that part, but getting better with every day at it, yay :))
- Gave off loads of vibes that of non-neediness, while still having a great time.
- Moving from txting to actual calling (we both used to be pretty afraid of calling and prefer txt, but I'm forcing myself to try phone first now, and she's responding pretty well to it)
- No sad stories, at all. Only some jokes about her ex when some asshole on TV had the same name, how apparently it's probably the name's fault :P


Things I'm unsure of:
- She got a text message during the evening, and when I made a joke about "Is that your boyfriend again?" (She's single ;)), she said it was some guy from where she came from that was hitting on her constantly txting her and she wouldn't answer him. Basically this is insecure because at one side it shows that I'm not something creepy she's trying to escape from (she answers my messages and from what I can tell she enjoys them), but would that put me in the friends zone or would she actually still know that I like her sexually and like that ?
- Whenever she's at my place at some point she will take my stuffed tux (linux mascott, yes, nerdy, but hey, I'm not hiding that), and starts treating it like a baby. Cuddling it all the time, (fake-)feeding it desert, and all that crap girls do :P. Would this be an indicator that she's trying to get my attention more (she's doing all over the top in a playful "Look, I'm giving this stuffed animal all attention"-manner), or would it be something to "protect" her against me (I have a feeling that she does that at parties too, by simply sticking with a really low-value guy to "protect" her)?
For now I've just either ignored it, made some jokes about it, or getting another stuffed animal and doing it right back at her in a jokingly manner, but I would really like to get some input on this specific issue.

Things that went bad:
- Wii. It's a great way to have a fun night, but it kills the kino as with most games you either have to duck away for the wii-mote (boom-blox) or you need both hands (mario kart) :(
- Almost no kino the entire night. The hug at the end somehow felt more intimate than usual, yet that was pretty much the most intimate we'd gotten all night. Now I'm not sure what exactly killed it (either the Wii, or the fact that we were both in a pretty bad shape physically because of a huge party two days ago), but it was rubbish :(

Anyway, all in all, looking back at my previous feeling about the night, I feel that I've progressed in shaping up to be more of an alpha male, but I'm less sure about this particular girl. Some nights I'm really confident that we've got something more than just friends going on, while others like these, seem to be pretty LJBF :/

Feedback is very much appreciated.
Author:  HockeyMonkey89 [ Tue Aug 26, 2008 4:05 am ]
Post subject: 
Wow, pretty amazing progress. Taking the lead is one of the most attractive things we can do as men. If she doesn't seem used to it, it's because she has probably been spoiled in the past by all those AFC guys that kissed up to her. Being different and standing out as a guy who doesn't bend his will for anyone is your best bet. Keep on not being needy, it'll get you far. I'm also very glad to hear there were no more psych sessions, this is a good sign that you're changing the way she sees you as well as her state of mind around you. Now for the things you're unsure of; Don't worry about the other guy texting her. Shes over at YOUR house right now, not his. Shes only trying to provoke a response from you because shes starting to feel like she isn't in control of your interactions anymore. I notice this alot with really beautiful women. Once they realize they're dealing with a much more confident guy then they're used to, some will resort to some pretty low routines to get back in the driver seat. Whenever you tell a girl how you feel about her, you allow her some power. In some situations its necessary, but try to refrain from doing so. She tried to force you to admit that you're jealous by mentioning that other guy, I hope you passed that shit test. As for the stuffed animal I always figured it's just a way for girls to get attention. A similar situation happened to me when I went over to a girl's house. It was my first time at her house and she already had her best friend over. They kept wrestling over a stuffed doggy they both decided to "adopt." I thought it was kind of weird but to be honest I didn't know what to do aside from just laugh at them. As for the lack of kino, don't worry about missing one day of kino. Showing a girl that you can resist touching her constantly can up your value and cause her to try and initiate kino herself(look up Push-Pull Tactics). Try not to worry about which way your relationship is headed. If you stay consistent with your alpha attitude in your next few interactions, you're probably safe as being one of her top candidates. At that point, when things are looking real good, you should pull the trigger. If it doesn't work out in the end, think of all the things you've learned from this experience. If it does work out, then you've accomplished a very difficult close because you would have pulled through a pretty sloppy start.


PW
Author:  LaserJet [ Tue Aug 26, 2008 3:42 pm ]
Post subject: 
Quote:
Wow, pretty amazing progress. Taking the lead is one of the most attractive things we can do as men. If she doesn't seem used to it, it's because she has probably been spoiled in the past by all those AFC guys that kissed up to her. Being different and standing out as a guy who doesn't bend his will for anyone is your best bet. Keep on not being needy, it'll get you far. I'm also very glad to hear there were no more psych sessions, this is a good sign that you're changing the way she sees you as well as her state of mind around you. Now for the things you're unsure of; Don't worry about the other guy texting her. Shes over at YOUR house right now, not his. Shes only trying to provoke a response from you because shes starting to feel like she isn't in control of your interactions anymore. I notice this alot with really beautiful women. Once they realize they're dealing with a much more confident guy then they're used to, some will resort to some pretty low routines to get back in the driver seat. Whenever you tell a girl how you feel about her, you allow her some power. In some situations its necessary, but try to refrain from doing so. She tried to force you to admit that you're jealous by mentioning that other guy, I hope you passed that shit test. As for the stuffed animal I always figured it's just a way for girls to get attention. A similar situation happened to me when I went over to a girl's house. It was my first time at her house and she already had her best friend over. They kept wrestling over a stuffed doggy they both decided to "adopt." I thought it was kind of weird but to be honest I didn't know what to do aside from just laugh at them. As for the lack of kino, don't worry about missing one day of kino. Showing a girl that you can resist touching her constantly can up your value and cause her to try and initiate kino herself(look up Push-Pull Tactics). Try not to worry about which way your relationship is headed. If you stay consistent with your alpha attitude in your next few interactions, you're probably safe as being one of her top candidates. At that point, when things are looking real good, you should pull the trigger. If it doesn't work out in the end, think of all the things you've learned from this experience. If it does work out, then you've accomplished a very difficult close because you would have pulled through a pretty sloppy start.


PW
Wow, you keep amazing me with your helpful posts :) I can't really tell you how much I appreciate getting some good feedback!
One thing that I would like to clear out and run past you is texting that other guy. I'm not at all jealous as she immediately mentioned that she wasn't interested in him and mostly ignores him. The only thing that does bother me is that this proves that I do actually mean something to her (she mostly responds to my messages/phone calls), but I'm terribly unsure of in what way that would be. Would she be answering my calls because she sees me as a good friend, or would she be answering them as a potential romantic interest? Or am I just over-analyzing this?

And about the stuffed toy, if it is indeed a way to get attention, do you have any ideas on how to respond to it? I've used it before as a way to kind of get into a more intimate position (try to grab around her to grab the animal, and if that fails (and it prolly will) just leave my arm around her and make it comfy :P), would the fact that she's tried that same maneuver again be an indication that that indeed would be a proper response?

Anyway, if everything goes well and I can get rid of this terrible cold I have currently, I'll see her again tomorrow, and after that we've got this deal that she'd visit me a weekend while I'm in Paris (Getting offered a 2 month consultancy job in friggin France turns out to be a great DHV, btw :P)
I'll be sure to post another field report after those encounters (although I will have to work on keeping things short and summarized :/)

Thanks again!
Author:  HockeyMonkey89 [ Wed Aug 27, 2008 8:50 am ]
Post subject: 
I'd say you're over analyzing what she might be thinking of you. You need to relax and not stress so much trying to figure her out. Eventually you'll both be on the same page, hopefully your page. I don't have much to say about the stuffed animal, you actually seem to be doing better then I did with that. Go ahead and get closer to her. Imagine thats exactly what she's trying to do by playing with it, it's to get you to touch her. My one other advice as you continue with this pursuit is to see more girls. Being around many different women can only improve your game.


PW
Author:  LaserJet [ Thu Aug 28, 2008 12:07 am ]
Post subject: 
Ok, field report. This is going to be a tad longer than before, but I still hope you'll be so kind to respond again. I might be doing better and better with every day I practice on this, but the feedback I get from you usually helps me advance days of practice in just a few minutes of reading ;)
Anyway, here goes. I was done with my exam pretty early, and after checking some other things, I called her and said that as I was in the neighbourhood I'd drop by and pick her up. She initially resisted saying it'd be easier to start at her place, started this talk about a dead mouse in the stairway, at which point I basically said "Ok, know what, I'll just come over, handle that mouse for you, and we'll see where things go from there.". She struggled a bit, mainly about not wanting me to clean up that mouse, but before she even finished that sentence she went like "Ehm, yeah, ok, see you in a bit".

It started off pretty crappy, makes me think that I have to start from scratch every time I see her. Passed the dead mouse ("No no, leave it there, I've cleaned the entire house, that one's for my house-mates"), into her room (which is a mess), she's already gotten me something to drink as she's just cleaned the kitchen and didn't want to mess it up again, and had bought a new printer. Basically she's horrible with technical stuff, while I'm a CS student, and she messed up. However, all attempts to help are practically shouted at (she insists on doing it alone, as she doesn't like asking people).I basically tell her that if she's going to be this cranky I've got other things to do, and at that exact moment someone called me (great timing). So I walk out of her room, answer the call, get back, and she instant apologized to me, and allows me to help with installing the cartridges. She's shouting a bit about "Now how am I going to do this myself?" but after removing them again and having her insert them again like I showed ("Yes, they're in now, that's all there is to it") she cheers up again :D
As my laptop was due to be delivered today, and it wasn't there when I left, I propose to eat at my place, and go out later. She agrees pretty easily, and we take the bike to my place (20mins), only to find a note stating that the delivery guy was there just 10 minutes after I'd left home :( We pick something to cook, go to the supermarket, get some things for her too, and she proposes to pay as I'd paid yesterday and some other time, and it's easier as half is hers anyway. I was a bit afraid about how an alpha male would respond to that, but hey, it sounded like a good arrangement, takes care of any guilt feelings she might have had, and it's fine by me. Also in the supermarket I do my usual "I'm just shopping routine", and she calls at me walking too fast quite a lot. Usually my response is to make a joke about it, walk beside her for a while, after which I usually wander off again ;) Does this sound good?
Anyway, food, and as it's pretty early and we're both full, we crash on the couch and watch some random crap on TV. Somehow we both got called and txted all the time, but we had a good time nevertheless (making fun of knight rider is always fun ;)), and she did the stuffed-animal trick again. She even put it under her vest and closed the zipper, but I really didn't want to go there, so I basically ignored that. Once she took it out I made a few attempts at getting it from her, one of which was particularly successful, as it ended up with her curled up against me ;)
We go into town, and sit somewhere for something to drink & eat (I proposed to go to one that looked great but was a bit quiet for her liking, instead we sat down at a place we've been before, possibly not-quite-leading behaviour, but picking a "fight" over where to drink would've had "beta" written all over it. When the waiter comes I figured I wanted apple-pie and ice-tea, but gesture her that she's the lady and should order first, and she orders the exact same. Normally I would've changed what I wanted or feel bad about it, but I just said a confident "I'll have the exact same, actually". She tried to call me on it, but I just said "Well, we have similar taste, and I don't like strawberry at all" and was pretty sure I pulled that off :D
After that we decide to walk around the city as I'll be leaving in two days for a few months of Paris, and as we do I try changing the pace a few times, sometimes slower, sometimes faster. The faster bits are easy, but slowing her down takes a while. Yet if I just keep walking a certain pace, she'll adjust eventually :)
I tried some kino too, but she scared away a few times, and when I called her on "Why're you pulling back all the time?" she just said it's her and she's "autistic" like that some times. After I called her on it I kept my hands to myself for a while, but when she mentioned she was feeling a bit sick she accepted my hand at her back and somewhat around her when I asked if she was OK. We decide to sit down for "a while" which turned out about an hour, and talk some more. It wasn't all funny and happy, and I might've had some small psych things, but that's mainly because we're also old friends, and I hadn't really spoken to her in a few months. Basically I interrupted her quite a few times (which she seemed ok with), and for the mood I tried to just be a non-judging type. ("some guys might think this and that, but hey, that's not ok with me, and you really shouldn't worry about it")
We've also had a little chat about some other guys she's been seeing (not sure how it came up), but basically what I noticed was that most guys that actually kissed her got shut out of her life almost instantly. Also she did that story on how friendship is a stronger bond and lasts longer than relationships, and how ages ago (when I was still AFC and hadn't even heard of this) when I told her how I felt about her she really doubted, and really was afraid to lose me and felt really bad about it, but she was really glad that we got back together. She's also said that "What I've got with you seems so much more, and we don't need kissing and sex, do we?" after which I basically answered in a pretty vague manner and told her that I wasn't sure if I would hang around forever as I was still attracted to her, and I couldn't promise this friends thing would work out, but as long as we'd be having fun I'd be OK with it. At this point she completely started disqualifying herself to me, telling me how she's unable to live up to what I'd want, etc. Basically I had no idea how to respond properly, so I went like "Look, you're good looking, we always have a lot of fun, and I enjoy your presence, how could you not live up to that?" and tell her to move closer, and put my arm around her, which she accepts.
Basically after some more talking, not too much kino (I removed my arm after about a minute or so, figured it'd be best to gradually return to normal before she comments about it), we decide to leave and walk back to the bikes. As I need to take a piss, I say I'm going to have to use her bathroom as she lives so much closer to the city-center, and she's ok with that. There we pass the mouse again (eeeew), hang up my coat (don't ask her for it or anything, just acted comfortable), and go to the loo. When I get back I said something like "Alright, I'll join you for a few more drinks", and we sit outside. Initially there's a table between us, but after getting tired of just being able to touch her legs, I move my chair to the side and propose to her to move there as "I'm tired of being so far away ;)". She looked a bit suprised, but after I just kept confident, she moved and we were closer together. Unfortunately at this point the neighbor also comes outside for a smoke, and we end up talking with him instead :(. The guy wasn't all that difficult, kept my status in regards to him even though he's a master student while I'm still working on my bachelor, but let her do most of the talking as it's her neighbor after all ;)
Afterwards when I leave we hug (it's easily the most intimate hug ever, like your saying goodbye to your family or something), and I say "Look, I'm leaving in two days, and I'd actually planned to go to my parents tomorrow, but I'm going to change that to see you again. So I'll call you tomorrow, and this time do take your agenda so we can pick a date when you'll visit.", she agrees pretty easily, and I leave.
Well, actually, I pass the dead mouse, and she makes a few comments about her house-mates finally being home and how one has a boyfriend that will fix the mouse for her.
Basically at this point I just couldn't let that mouse rot away there, so I said "Ok, that's it, I'm cleaning this up for you". This time she didn't struggle, gave me what I asked for (two waste-bags), and let me clean it up (honestly, who in their right mind would leave a dead mouse lying in their stairway?!). Made some jokes about how I would respond if it'd move again, but it was pretty dead, was grossed out on the inside, but just did what I had to do and cleaned it up for her. After thoroughly cleaning my hands, I took my coat, put my hand on her hips, and casually say "See you tomorrow", and just leave. Figured not needing another hug would show a non-neediness and would prolly leave her questioning ;)
On the way home I txted her a little joke about the evening, and she responded pretty quickly. I waited till I was home (~20mins), and txted another one about how the cat that we'd petted earlier was at my door and missed her. Something for her to respond to when she wakes up, I guess :)



Anyway, *still* no k-close, but nevertheless some pretty good situations. It started off with her trying to lead me a bit, which she succeeded in on a few things, but I'm pretty sure I was leading at the end of the night, and I surely must've scored points on that mouse, right? :P
The plan for now is to just have some more fun tomorrow, pick a weekend for when she'll visit me in Paris, and just keep it casual. I'm not planning to k-close tomorrow, as she's quite messed up and I feel that I need to spend more time with her before actually kissing her in a way that's comfortable for both of us, and won't scare her away like what happened to those other guys.
However, when she visits in Paris, I'll have her not just for an evening, but for two whole days, so I'm going to work hard on comfort and kino, and hope to k-close the second day, or even at the end of day 1.

Any feedback, good or bad, is greatly appreciated (especially PW's, thanks bud :) )

EDIT:
Ok, that was long. Sorry about that :(
Also, one other thing that I wanted to bring up: the fact that she considered me as a boyfriend when I was still AFC, makes me feel that with some more confidence, and a k-close, this could definitely turn into an LTR. I'll definitely want to take things slow as she's so damned fragile emotionally, but it seems like a possibility.
I feel that I should just be confident, go in for a kiss whenever I feel we're both comfortable with it, and make it feel like it's only natural to go beyond friends. Basically the "I like you more than a friend" that I threw her months ago was me shooting myself in the foot, because how else could she respond? Saying yes would've been awkward because we'd want to kiss but had never done so, so saying no was the only real option.
Basically what I need to do is make it only natural to go for a yes, and lead her into it, right ?
Author:  HockeyMonkey89 [ Sat Aug 30, 2008 12:47 am ]
Post subject: 
I'll be honest, I see alot of room for improvement from reading this post. If I get a few things mixed up, my bad, the longer it takes me to read the faster I start reading. So towards the end I might have already been going at lightspeed and did not register some of what you wrote as clearly.

You did some good by telling her you don't accept grumpy attitude. You also used a time distortion tactic by moving around alot. When you're out with a girl and you keep changing locations, she feels like you've been together for a lot longer. Which results in her trusting you alot more.

Now here is what made me cry out at the screen; First off, the dead mouse thing.. I wouldn't have asked her if I can pick it up and throw it away to give her a chance to tell me about all those things she cleaned that day. I'd just pick it up and do it. Second, we back up to your first phone conversation. It sounds like alot of them follow the same pattern; You ask permission, she resists, you beg, she gives in. Is that what you want for the basis of your relationship? If anything you'd want those roles to be switched around. Next time she resists, show her that because she resisted you lost interest and decided to go away. If you invite yourself over to her house and she says no, disqualify her and hang up ("my type a girl would do *something* in this situation" or "I'd much rather come over when you look presentable enough for me to see you"). Chances are she won't call you back the first time you do this, but the next time you see her she'll try to be more like your imaginary "ideal girl." It's called shaping, when you condition a girl to fit your own life style. You saw this in the printer portion of your field report. After you gave her a choice of keeping you or losing you, then walking out, she felt like she chose the wrong decision. And when you came back she didn't want to make the same mistake twice so she kissed up to you. Third, and this one is a big one.. Can you admit to yourself that you have oneitis? Through out your interaction you are only fully conscious of her. You make her feel as comfortable as she possibly can despite your own needs. From being extremely cautious with kino to covering up what you order to eat. And then again when you blow off your plans to hang out with her the next day. It's a DLV to put your target as a top priority in your life. You got to be more comfortable with yourself. Girls can read body language ten times better then men, she most likely can sense how you're not completely comfortable with your hand around her. You need to show her that you are a natural and you aren't distressed by human touch. To fix this, you first have to admit that you have oneitis. The cure for oneitis is, as we both know, Go Fuck Twelve Other Women (GFTOW). I suggest you start seeing other girls. On your day together she basically gave you the LJBF prep speech. I don't really see the mystical force that keeps you glued to her so hard. Go elevate your female company and become the master of touching girls everywhere and anywhere at anytime while having fun with it and them having fun with it too. Don't go spank random girls on the street, but when you see a clean shot, take it and get used to doing it. Also, when you kino you don't want to leave your limb hanging on her back. All she'll wonder is, "What the hell is he doing? This is uncomfortable." What you want to do after you make contact, is move your hand around. Keep traveling (I'd say towards the lower back because thats a sexual sign) around so her thoughts would be, "I'm enjoying this, it's unpredictable yet relaxing." Once you're good with that, you can finally kino escalate into the next stage (like comfortably touching the back of her neck, good prep to kiss closing). Style said in the game after observing Mystery, "In order to get the girl, you must first be willing to risk losing her."

One more thing to put into perspective. You keep mentioning that she says she is afraid of relationships and isn't willing to put herself in a position to get hurt. Do you believe that there is not a chance in the world that some guy who'd come into her life right now wouldn't be able to sweep her off her feet and start a relationship with her out of the blue? It can happen, so why can't YOU be that guy? If you were a doctor and she was your patient, wouldn't you prescribe a healthy honest relationship as SPAM?

Just a side note: If I keep running into an obstacle like you mentioned; "I tried some kino too, but she scared away a few times" I, personally, wouldn't call her out on it. Because I think it takes this sort of intimacy out of the game, I'd try some other route instead. But it did work for you in that instance, so do what is congruent with your own style, just make sure your style isn't AFC. Have some fun in France, don't be thinking about her the whole time!


PW
Author:  LaserJet [ Sun Aug 31, 2008 12:14 pm ]
Post subject: 
Quote:
I'll be honest, I see alot of room for improvement from reading this post. If I get a few things mixed up, my bad, the longer it takes me to read the faster I start reading. So towards the end I might have already been going at lightspeed and did not register some of what you wrote as clearly.

You did some good by telling her you don't accept grumpy attitude. You also used a time distortion tactic by moving around alot. When you're out with a girl and you keep changing locations, she feels like you've been together for a lot longer. Which results in her trusting you alot more.

Now here is what made me cry out at the screen; First off, the dead mouse thing.. I wouldn't have asked her if I can pick it up and throw it away to give her a chance to tell me about all those things she cleaned that day. I'd just pick it up and do it. Second, we back up to your first phone conversation. It sounds like alot of them follow the same pattern; You ask permission, she resists, you beg, she gives in. Is that what you want for the basis of your relationship? If anything you'd want those roles to be switched around. Next time she resists, show her that because she resisted you lost interest and decided to go away. If you invite yourself over to her house and she says no, disqualify her and hang up ("my type a girl would do *something* in this situation" or "I'd much rather come over when you look presentable enough for me to see you"). Chances are she won't call you back the first time you do this, but the next time you see her she'll try to be more like your imaginary "ideal girl." It's called shaping, when you condition a girl to fit your own life style. You saw this in the printer portion of your field report. After you gave her a choice of keeping you or losing you, then walking out, she felt like she chose the wrong decision. And when you came back she didn't want to make the same mistake twice so she kissed up to you. Third, and this one is a big one.. Can you admit to yourself that you have oneitis? Through out your interaction you are only fully conscious of her. You make her feel as comfortable as she possibly can despite your own needs. From being extremely cautious with kino to covering up what you order to eat. And then again when you blow off your plans to hang out with her the next day. It's a DLV to put your target as a top priority in your life. You got to be more comfortable with yourself. Girls can read body language ten times better then men, she most likely can sense how you're not completely comfortable with your hand around her. You need to show her that you are a natural and you aren't distressed by human touch. To fix this, you first have to admit that you have oneitis. The cure for oneitis is, as we both know, Go Fuck Twelve Other Women (GFTOW). I suggest you start seeing other girls. On your day together she basically gave you the LJBF prep speech. I don't really see the mystical force that keeps you glued to her so hard. Go elevate your female company and become the master of touching girls everywhere and anywhere at anytime while having fun with it and them having fun with it too. Don't go spank random girls on the street, but when you see a clean shot, take it and get used to doing it. Also, when you kino you don't want to leave your limb hanging on her back. All she'll wonder is, "What the hell is he doing? This is uncomfortable." What you want to do after you make contact, is move your hand around. Keep traveling (I'd say towards the lower back because thats a sexual sign) around so her thoughts would be, "I'm enjoying this, it's unpredictable yet relaxing." Once you're good with that, you can finally kino escalate into the next stage (like comfortably touching the back of her neck, good prep to kiss closing). Style said in the game after observing Mystery, "In order to get the girl, you must first be willing to risk losing her."

One more thing to put into perspective. You keep mentioning that she says she is afraid of relationships and isn't willing to put herself in a position to get hurt. Do you believe that there is not a chance in the world that some guy who'd come into her life right now wouldn't be able to sweep her off her feet and start a relationship with her out of the blue? It can happen, so why can't YOU be that guy? If you were a doctor and she was your patient, wouldn't you prescribe a healthy honest relationship as SPAM?

Just a side note: If I keep running into an obstacle like you mentioned; "I tried some kino too, but she scared away a few times" I, personally, wouldn't call her out on it. Because I think it takes this sort of intimacy out of the game, I'd try some other route instead. But it did work for you in that instance, so do what is congruent with your own style, just make sure your style isn't AFC. Have some fun in France, don't be thinking about her the whole time!


PW
Looking back at it now, I definitely see a lot of room for improvement too. Fact is that I got kinda freaked out by the fact that I was going to Paris and wouldn't see her again, which boosted my AFC-ness massively. Also I pretty much agree with the one-itis, although I'd only *really* noticed it when I invited another girl over later that night, and somehow felt guilty and kino-ing just felt awkward because of it.

Anyway, I won't be seeing her or anyone else for two weeks, so loads of time to straighten out my mind ;) I do hope you could give me some more feedback. I'll be posting another summary of the day after the previous post. It's going to get pretty lenghty, and if you don't feel like reading it all (basically I just completely AFC-ed), please just skip to the bottom for some concrete questions I have.

As for the dead mouse, 't was a bit funny, but I'm pretty sure I wasn't "asking" her to allow me to pick it up. Rather I offered her when I arrived, but she told me she'd already cleaned the rest of the house and she wanted her housemates to do this thing. Basically just ignored it, and cracked loads of jokes about it over the evening (honestly, how is having a friggin dead mouse in your stairway not hilarious :P?). Anyway, before I left I was pretty serious when I just said that I did not intend to leave somewhere without cleaning that shit up for her, and at this point she just went along. I think the main reason I let it pass the first time was because I thought she was ok with it, but after all the joking about it, I was pretty sure she was disgusted by it just as much as I was ;)

As for calling her on the kino-scaring-away, I'm not quite sure what I said, but it was more along the lines of "Why are you suddenly so stressed?". Not quite sure what made it work, prolly just the fact that I pretended I had no idea why she was scaring away and kept a pretty confident outside.


--- START OF HORRIBLE DAY ---
(last day, dinner and all)
Anyway, if the previous field report made you cry out, this next day is going to freak you out even more. I sure did :/
Basically started off pretty awkward, as she initially was on her way to me, when I suddenly got some business news that I needed to pick up a package near her place, so I called her and asked her if she was ok with me coming to her place and postponing it a bit. Eventually it turned out I couldn't actually pick up the package (not going into the details here, but Dell and the transport company here surely are bithces), so went her way, pretty pissed off about the whole dell thing, which probably fucked up the mood pretty much. Dinner was ok, tried to help out on making it, but she planned something I hadn't made before so I didn't really know how to. Dinner was pretty silent, tried some jokes to crack the ice, but basically she thought the TV was more interesting than me. After dinner I figured I'd try a venue change to re-try setting the mood, but she insisted that we first plan what weekend she'd come visit me in Paris. Picked a weekend, booked a train, and the mood just completely changed, she was all excited, and I felt pretty good about her visiting me in Paris too, so basically yay! Unfortunately, from here it only got worse. We first left to the city, and decided to leave the bike at our student society, as she'd have to be there later that night. Once there we decide to drop by, and have a drink. Inside, she totally took the lead, mostly because loads of people that still know me to be incredibly AFC/beta were looking at us in a "wtf are they doing together"-way. Basically we sit at the bar, I get something to drink, offer her something, but she doesn't want anything. I just get my drink, sit next to her for a while, but when I notice she's busy doing something just grab something to read, and later on join some friends in a game of "set". She joins some of her friends, I propose to leave and hit the city, but she refuses, so I go back to my friends, untill she proposes to leave, at which point I act like I'm still busy with something quick, and try again later, at which point she's busy again, etc.

(leaving awkwardness, and more awkwardness)
Basically after a while she agrees to leave, but stalls. I just leave, and bump into a friend outside. After a while she txts me with "Where are you" after which I just call "I'm right outside, are you coming?". Anyway, she joins me outside (finally away from all those assholes inside), and we set out for a pub. Not sure what exactly caused it, but she's completely distant from me from this point onwards. To me, there could be three main reasons:
a) That we've seen eachother too much, or yesterday was "too close"/"too intimate" for her
b) That other people have seen us together and are prolly labelling us as "together"
c) That my confidence was completely down the drain that day because of all the events
Not sure which one(s) exactly, but pretty sure it's one of those.
When we enter the pub and find out that there's more people from the student-society there, and two of the guys just completely AMOG me, and one of them winks at her in a "oooh, you guys are planning something"-way. One of them is a pretty nice guy and he took the hint and kinda grabbed the other one and told him they were leaving, but that other one is honestly a major pain in the behind, and had his arm all around me leaning on me before I could even recognize him :S. Basically just gave him a subtle but not so subtle nudge away from me. So basically, we sit down, mood completely fucked up, I order drinks and ask for the menu as we wanted to order something to celebrate that she's coming to Paris. She goes all like "oh, they have something, but it's all really expensive, let's not do it" and I just casually say "Ah well, let's just have this drink and move on to another place for that then" and she just freaks out "Nah, I don't feel like anything else". So we finish our drinks, as I finished earlier and don't want to be just "waiting" for her, I order another one, and once I finish that we leave. We've had some smalltalk, but basically just a very awkward mood. When we arrive at our student society (where she has to be, as she was doing the disco later that night), I decide to just leave, and basically let her know that I really was looking forward to just have another nice day together before I left, and this majorly sucked. She seemed pretty disappointed at me leaving, yet I felt crap and really didn't feel like forcing myself into a confident mood to face all those guys at the student society trying to out-alpha me.

(Yes, it can get even worse)
On my way home I text her basically translated to:
"Not sure what exactly is causing this each time, but I really don't feel like doing this anymore. If you want to talk about it, do let me know, and I'll prolly be able to turn around. Also I think this is probably the worst way ever goodbye, really do hope you'll try to reach me"
About an hour later I got a reply:
"What do you mean? I'm not doing this on purpose or anything..."
Decided to wait half an hour or so to calm down about it, and call her. She doesn't answer. I txt "Really don't feel like putting this all into txt, just call me" instead.
She doesn't call or txt, and I just start feeling worse and worse, especially since my housemate is in my room watching TV and is generally in a bad mood too, so we both bith and moan, dragging eachother further down really :/
After an hour or so I get this "bright" idea to just go over there, ask a friend to take over her, and tell her "We need to talk, come on, (friend of me) will take over for you". So I bike over her, pretty sure that she'll see why we need to speak, but it kinda blows up in my face. Her response was a rather annoyed "Why?!" after which I say "Because this is not how I want to say goodbye" and she agrees with "Ok, let me just round this off, 20 more mins ok?". So I go to my friend, tell him about the 20 mins thing, which he's fine with, and talk a bit. Getting back into a good mood again I txt her (didn't feel like moving into the busy area again) "Just give me a signal or anything when (friend) should take over. Doesn't have to be strictly 20 mins or so, just want to clear this up before I leave for Paris. Oh, and (friend)'s pretty looking forward to doing a little disco, so don't worry about that ;)"
Get a message back "After Cascada", text back "Cascada?!" (I had no idea that was the song playing), at which point she shows up next to me and says "This song ;)", and we go outside.

(Conversation that's prolly interesting)
I don't remember the exact conversation as I just let my emotions take over (bad bad bad, don't ever ever let your emotions take over). Some things I do remember were:
- her shouting "Look, I'm don't want a relationship right now" a few times (even though I hadn't even said anything like that, and was just referring to her freaking out after having a good time)
- Her telling me that "I always want things to be black or white, why can't it be gray", when I asked "Then what on earth is gray?" she said she didn't know.
- I told her that if she was going to act this way again, I really didn't think coming to Paris was a good idea, and that I was pretty pissed about het starting to act like this just after we'd planned this. This ended in her saying "Well, if you don't want me to come, at least tell me now so I can cancel" and I said "If you're going to keep acting like this, then I prefer you don't come". This ended in us just staring at eachother for a while, I could see that she was pretty damned close to crying, at which point I just cracked and said "Ok, let's just put it like this, are you coming to Paris for Paris, or are you coming to Paris to see me?", I don't know what exactly she answered, but basically she didn't give a clear answer, but it came down to wanting to share my experience or something like that. Basically I just cracked and said "Pfff, oh well, I wouldn't have invited you over if I didn't enjoy your presence, so just come over and we'll see how things turn out."

This last bit kinda ended the up-tight fight-mood, and we sat down a few mins to (somewhat forced) talk about other stuff. Didn't last very long as she needed to pee and went back inside. I stayed outside as I met some other friends there.

Later that night I just decided I wanted a last proper night at my student society and didn't want to worry about her. I saw her flirting heavily with some guy of which she's told me she hates him, and just ignored it.
Before she left, basically begging for a hug, but at this point I was in a complete "Fuck her, this is my night now"-mood, and I just looked at her and politely said "Oh, Bye, see you". When she poked again and basically gave me those puppy-eyes-look, I just looked up and said "Goodnight" and went back to the game I was playing.

Later that night (8AM-ish) I talked about it with some friends and basically ended up feeling guilty that when she finally did come my way I just ignored her, so I txted her:
"Goodmorning Sunshine :)! That you're still kinda cute, and that I still owe you a hug when you get to Paris ;) X, (me)"
Didn't get a reply to that one specifically, but when I txted the following day:
"Gonna spend one or two more hours at (student society) just to say goodbye to everyone. If you're up for it you could get that goodbye hug I still owe you today ;) At least I'm in a better mood today :) X, (me)"
she replied:
"Unfortunely I'm almost in (where her parents live)! But I'll come and get my hug in Paris ;) Had a good night? And be sure to have a great time in! love"
Which kinda made me feel that we're back on speaking terms again.
--- END OF HORRIBLE DAY ---

So anyway, I'm now in Paris. Won't see her or anyone else I know for another two weeks. After those two weeks I'll have a massive shared b-day party with my housemate, and I'll see everyone again. Then two more weeks of PAris, and she'll join me for a weekend here.

Not quite sure how to handle this. Should I just freeze her out and see how she responds at the party, or should I keep texting her occasionally?
I've been texting her my travel-reports that I txt to most of my friends, and I've txted her last night when I spoke a mutual friend on messenger which seemed pretty depressed (basically said that she should send him some nice txt messages to cheer him up), and just got a reply to that:
"Hey! How'd you know he's feeling down? And how is Paris? Love"

So anyway, I'm not sure on the texting. I suck at text-game, yet calling her from here is damned expensive :/
Yet I do have some things sorted out:
- First two weeks I'll just try and get to know Paris and get to know people (pretty difficult, don't speak a lot of french, and french don't speak a lot of english)
- At that party I'll first and foremost get to see my friends, I'll probably see if I can progress things with her again, but she's not even near my top priority then.
- When she comes, I plan to just show her around Paris and have a good time, and see if she's more open to things (no people judging her, hpefully no confidence issues, so should be ok), and see if I can progress things.

Anyway, would love to get some feedback again. Especially on what to do with that txt message she sent me (I'm ignoring it for now, wouldn't hurt to keep her waiting for a while).

Thanks
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