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Counter AMOG (theory)
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Author:  Ka [ Wed Apr 02, 2008 2:24 am ]
Post subject:  Counter AMOG (theory)
When i first got into PU one of my ultimate goals was to lift myself up status wise within my social circles. To become the alpha leader of these groups, i would have to deflect a barrage of AMOG'in directed at me.

I got plenty of practise in that respect, seeing as how many of my close friends and family members are very much so alpha types. Not only that i had to overcome years of socially established norms.

A good friend of mine who is also in PU made a profound statement that has stuck with me;

"We train people how to treat us."

Simple but extremely profound. I had never thought about it like that. People test us on a daily basis and based on our reactions to them decide how to treat us. Based on this understanding, its possible to make quick desicions to control how people treat us in the future.

Originally i thought the process of flipping my status around and "re-training" my friends and family would take forever if it was even possible...to my surprise i started seeing results almost immediatlly. Some of the people who had AMOG'ed me the most didnt change at first, they actually amp'd up the AMOG'in for a short period. However through continuelly countering thier AMOG'in, i was able to retrain them and see drastic results in the way i was being treated.

How'd i do it?

Well this is where we get a bit more into my theory on how to on the fly, create and effectivelly use Counter's to typical AMOG'ing.

First you need to know a bit about the person AMOG'in you...the more you know them the easier this is. However if you never meet them before, you can still read a bit about them from body language, tonality, EC, thier friends, how they say things.

Why is this important? Because the way i counter AMOG is to custom tailor the counter to the person. I look for weakness's, quirks, contridicorty statements/actions, etc. Then i turn this around on them.

---------------------------------------------------------

For instance:
I go out on my birthday with some friends, a long time friend who shall be called CZ, is a huge AMOG. My friends have for a long time, felt i resemble Justin Timberlake...which i used to let bother me but now i take it as a compliment.

Due to my fedora and jacket, overall look, my buddy CZ has decided to use that to AMOG me throughout the night...heres how some of them went...

CZ: "Hey dude, you know you inda look like that fag, Justin Timberlake."
ME: "Aw, CZ, if your gonna hit on me stop playing games and just tell me you like me."
(said with a smile, EC, then start laffing and talk about something else.)

Later, we enter another venue and a Moroon 5 song is playing...

CZ: "Hey you could be this fag too." (makes a physical refference to the music comming from roof speakers)
ME: "What band is that?"
CZ: "Its Moroon 5."
ME: "Wow, and im suppossed to be the gay one, yet you know who they are?"
(All said with a smile and EC, then a hearty laff)
*The people in our group each time laff at CZ, this time his girlfriend is cracking up laffing at him*

-------------------------------------------

So what did i do in my examples? Why did they work and what did i base them off of?

Since i know this guy, i know when he typically tries to put down another guy he reffrences homosexuality (gay, fag, queer, etc). Most people who constantly call others things of this nature are deep down inside unsure of thier own sexuality. So i turned this weakness against him and the discomfort he displayed caused him to completely lose the power, and my comfort with it all along with not getting upset gave me all the power.

So what do you do when you cant make such a deep reading?

Well you can counter AMOG simply by turning around something they say (look at my FR in PMZ, Wedding rehersal..good example of counter AMOG in this mammer).

You can pre-emptively AMOG/counter simply by seating arrangement. Make sure to be as central as possible to everyone and make sure the person who you want to counter is in the worst possible location for social interaction.

What about physical AMOG?

This is a bit more complex, but the idea here is akin to amp'ing up kino. Start off by verbally countering ("hey bro, im not intrested thanks, no need to get touchy-feely"). Then start with very small counter/kino, say a tap or light punch...combine it with a AMOG like statemnt (punch arm "HEY BUDDY!")...later in the night grab his shoulders and squeeze. Always combine some kinda friendly statement with the physcial AMOG/counter, assumeing his wasnt threatening.

This is about the best advice i can think of as far as how to counter AMOG'in...to sum it up...Get used to reading people, use thier weakness's against them in your counter comments, if they amp it up, so do you, keep it all friendly.

Hope this helps
Author:  mardy [ Sun Apr 13, 2008 8:06 pm ]
Post subject: 
Great explanation... thanks a lot... having been thinking about this for while now, but had no clear view on it... Excellent guide... definately helps... :D
Author:  Simpua [ Tue Apr 15, 2008 1:27 pm ]
Post subject: 
Your post has a lot of good information in it. After learning about pickup I realized that among my group of friend and I, I was acting very submissive. I normally don't act submissive anymore, except with my friends. Once I realized this it was easy to change and the results were almost immediate.

One of my friends in particular is a police officer and has a huge love of authority. He is the biggest AMOG of my group of friends and I find it amazing that I now notice how people change when they are around him. Most of my friends become submissive to him in his presence, as I used to.

Now that I realize this I started simply not being submissive to him. The first thing that happened is he upped the AMOG on me. I ignored his statements and within an hour it looked as if he was trying to hard to the rest of the group. He stopped AMOGing me and his attitude towards me has now changed. I think it is utterly amazing how quickly this change took place.
Author:  kbell [ Tue Apr 15, 2008 4:17 pm ]
Post subject: 
Wouldn't a slight patting on the back be enough to AMOG someone? Its pretty demeaning. Although its probably better to do it saying something positive.
Author:  Ka [ Tue Apr 15, 2008 9:25 pm ]
Post subject: 
Quote:
Your post has a lot of good information in it. After learning about pickup I realized that among my group of friend and I, I was acting very submissive. I normally don't act submissive anymore, except with my friends. Once I realized this it was easy to change and the results were almost immediate.

One of my friends in particular is a police officer and has a huge love of authority. He is the biggest AMOG of my group of friends and I find it amazing that I now notice how people change when they are around him. Most of my friends become submissive to him in his presence, as I used to.

Now that I realize this I started simply not being submissive to him. The first thing that happened is he upped the AMOG on me. I ignored his statements and within an hour it looked as if he was trying to hard to the rest of the group. He stopped AMOGing me and his attitude towards me has now changed. I think it is utterly amazing how quickly this change took place.
Awsome man, isnt it funny how quickly people "re-learn" how to treat you?

People are continuiously gaugeing your reactions subconsiously to see if they; can get away with more, have maximized thier results and should remain the same, or should tone it down.

As for your suggestion kbell...it depends. I like using physical "buddy" actions like this to maintain my alpha stance. However when i counter physical AMOG'in i do it very gradually and subtly...the last thing you wana do is get into a physical race to see who can be more dominent.

You never want someone to think when you counter them is that its a challenge, or an insult. You want them to laff at it and accept it so that they and others are of the mindset that its acceptable (and consiously dominent) behavior...and then maybe later think to themselves, theres just something about the way that he acts that makes me feel his presence.
Author:  Tzar [ Wed Apr 16, 2008 2:59 pm ]
Post subject: 
I have had difficulty 're-training' my friends outlook on me. My experience of it actually made me question the whole 'Alpha male is best' mentality.

I was the most passive one in the group, unwilling to say anything alpha, but defended myself in a normal way.
I started to amp up my AMOG gradually, a few of my friends accepted this new status very quickly, but two of them couldn't.

The first friend was a straight out alpha fest. I would amp it up, he would amp it up. I would slap his back, he would punch me in the arm. I could see everyone else in the group getting worried things were going to far and serious, even though it was over a number of hours. By the end of it we were either going to fight or something else. I broke first with 'what is your FUCKING problem, man', but luckily he ended up apologising, although patronisingly. This sort of night repeated itself a few times, usually but not always with the same guy.

The second friend was the joker of the group, so would out-humour me when I touched him and gave him a funny comment to assert my power. He would respond, 'don't fuckin tooouch me maan!' with a smile on his face or some other jokey comment. It worked and I couldn't establish dominance as he always had the last laugh. Humour works to deflect alpha's, and he proved it by being funnier!

It was a shit load of effort to keep up the alpha'ing anyway and I found it personally draining and very 'wrong in me' even after I had done it for a couple of months by this point. Maybe I should have persisted but all I had done was alienate most of my friends. It didn't seem worth it.

I've now had more success by being better at my inner game, and applying this is a backbone to gradually increasing alphaness. It seems more congruent.

For me, you can't 'just be alpha' and have it work like magic, real conflict and alienation of friends can erupt if not careful.
Author:  Ka [ Wed Apr 16, 2008 6:46 pm ]
Post subject: 
Quote:
I have had difficulty 're-training' my friends outlook on me. My experience of it actually made me question the whole 'Alpha male is best' mentality.

I was the most passive one in the group, unwilling to say anything alpha, but defended myself in a normal way.
I started to amp up my AMOG gradually, a few of my friends accepted this new status very quickly, but two of them couldn't.

The first friend was a straight out alpha fest. I would amp it up, he would amp it up. I would slap his back, he would punch me in the arm. I could see everyone else in the group getting worried things were going to far and serious, even though it was over a number of hours. By the end of it we were either going to fight or something else. I broke first with 'what is your FUCKING problem, man', but luckily he ended up apologising, although patronisingly. This sort of night repeated itself a few times, usually but not always with the same guy.

The second friend was the joker of the group, so would out-humour me when I touched him and gave him a funny comment to assert my power. He would respond, 'don't fuckin tooouch me maan!' with a smile on his face or some other jokey comment. It worked and I couldn't establish dominance as he always had the last laugh. Humour works to deflect alpha's, and he proved it by being funnier!

It was a shit load of effort to keep up the alpha'ing anyway and I found it personally draining and very 'wrong in me' even after I had done it for a couple of months by this point. Maybe I should have persisted but all I had done was alienate most of my friends. It didn't seem worth it.

I've now had more success by being better at my inner game, and applying this is a backbone to gradually increasing alphaness. It seems more congruent.

For me, you can't 'just be alpha' and have it work like magic, real conflict and alienation of friends can erupt if not careful.
Of course, you MUST get your inner game upto par before you can really achieve this. You cant go around making claims that your a rocket scientist if you cant do rocket science, sure it might work on some people but sooner or later your gonna meet a rocket scientist whos see's through it.

Also, the ways in which you were either AMOG'in or countering may not have been right for the person your doing it to. For instance with the funny guy, your not gonna out do him with words, physcially AMOG him, then when he says "Dont touch me!" just go, "Why, arent you comfortable with yourself?".

For the guy whoes more physical you must start with words, do what the funny guy was doing to you, but apply it toward the physical guy. Eventually after your words take affect on him then you start with very subtle physical AMOG'in...like walk past him in the bar slap him on the back/shoulder and say "Hey sup?" but just keep walking...he will think its friendly not hostile...and wont have time to hit you back.

It is a constant power struggle, but its much easier to maintain then it is to achieve. For instance now, my friends will ask me things which gives me the oppurtunity to AMOG, ever so slightly....and i counter this by complimenting them when they deserve it.

It is worth doing, because you'll essentially have to do this in every set your in...and if your friends that you spend a bunch of time with and are most likely out with dont think your alpha, how can you expect strangers to think you are?
Author:  Tzar [ Thu Apr 17, 2008 4:31 pm ]
Post subject: 
Good reply and good tip, thanks.

I do need to keep working on my inner game to match what I'm doing. I definately feel it is having a better effect when both are in sync. I always feel and act more 'alpha' when my inner game is sorted. I'll keep working on it.
Author:  TL [ Sat Apr 26, 2008 5:52 pm ]
Post subject: 
Wow, that was a very insightful post! Thanks man, keep on posting. =)
Author:  Fluoro [ Sun Apr 27, 2008 7:51 am ]
Post subject: 
I agree with the retraining idea. I think David D said that people are like dogs, and the same ideas apply.

now... Friendship is not a competition...

now consider someone you just met acting like this, I probably neg then exit, If you don't want to hang around people like this for more than 5 minutes why do you choose to hang around them as friends?

a lot of the stuff you learn in pick-up applies to both guys and girls, you may, or may not be trying to get laid (I'll leave that up to you) but if you feel submissive to him, its because you're giving him your power...

- Be yourself at all times, just be yourself better.
Author:  snowstorm12 [ Tue Apr 29, 2008 3:08 am ]
Post subject:  strategic posturing
Excellent post! I really enjoyed your simple dissection of how to handle "retraining" those around you. One thing to consider though,

There is always one guy around who is the natural alpha. The party guy and magnet for all of your friends and lots of other people that you only know through this guy. While you can re-train someone like this, they may not like it and choose to minimize associations with you. If thats the case, you'll lose the social benefits of being cool with this person and at least for me (i'm thinking of one alpha in specific) i'd rather set my self up as a fellow alpha who is an equal to rather than greater than the guy in question. While this goes against some of the precepts of game theory, in practicality if your not naturally alpha, living and breathing it 24/7 then your better off letting someone do the grunt work for you and using your skills only when you want to. It takes tremendous effort to be on all the time for months (as you pointed out) if its not your natural state.

Just because you can, doesn't neccesarily mean you should.
Author:  Fluoro [ Thu May 01, 2008 4:58 am ]
Post subject: 
Yeah I sorta agree with you snowstorm, and i would like to agree more, but two alpha males just doesn't fit with the alpha mentality, look at lions, or chimps, or whatever... only one big daddy pimp mofo.

But thats really a different conversation i think...

Yeah ultimately you don't wanna go ditching your mates unless you find you just can't 're-train' them... then maybe some time away from them will purge them of their ghastly misconceptions!
Author:  Ka [ Thu May 01, 2008 4:09 pm ]
Post subject: 
Well, if your doing things right its easier then you think. I hang out with multiple naturals, they all function within the same group.

You train EVERYONE, ALL the time, with EVERY interaction...naturals are not exzept from this. They are alpha to you because you have shown them you will accept that.

I even mentioned in my post that the more alpha personalities WOULD get WORSE before they got better. Thats a good indicator that your establishing yourself.

Think of it this way, lets say the alpha is like a midevil king and you (and your Counter AMOG'in) are like a group of many peasants. You storm into the castle and riot trying to take over. Do you think the king is gonna just sit around and let that happen? Of course not, hes gonna become even more of a tyrant until he realises it wont help him...then he will try to be nice to the peasants as to not get thrown in jail, kicked out of town, or killed.

AMOG'in/countering works much the same way. With people have have frames close to yours, they will quickly respond to your actions. People with much weaker frames are already submissive, but people with stronger frames have had this effect on you. When you reverse this on someone whos got a much stronger frame then you (or was used to having a stronger one) they want to fight to keep it that way, thus things get a bit worse at first.

Then later they realise that the amp'd up AMOG'in on thier part is only hurting them socially, so they accept fate but take small crack shots at you as any normal person does later.

Alpha/beta status is a constant struggle. People on a min by min basis test you and feel you out, be it if theyve known you for years or just met you. How you react determines how they continue to treat you as a whole.

Remember the simple concept of countering is to deflect thier comment, come accross as humorous or not careing, and make them look like an ass for what they said. If your not getting the results you want, calibrate your countering and keep it up.
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