PUA Forum :: Good ideas turned bad

The basketball analogy really doesn't do the situation any justice.

Practicing throwing a ball and attracting women have rather few similarities. One system has fairly specific techniques which can be taught and has real coaches with real success stories backing them. Very publicly visible results. Another is basically a system that preys on men's deepest insecurities with "coaches" with no verifiable track records. Human attraction is far more unpredictable and difficult to understand and teach when compared to basic sport technique.

Quote:

I get the sense that you're just a highly disagreeable person. Every time I see you posting, it's to tell someone how they're wrong. Literally every time.

Cry me a river guys, but if you take a few minutes to look through my posts you'll find "go with what they said" statements as well. Sometimes I won't even bother posting if I see that advice that I agree with was given. Are we all supposed to fist-bump and sing Kumbaya?

Basketball isn't "pickup" or "game" - whatever the hell those even are. Yeah, semantics matter. No, meeting women isn't a sport. Unless you're obsessed with meeting women in an unhealthy, pathetic way.

My mentality does completely differ from many PUAland folks - I don't think with my dick, try to spend as little effort and money as possible to sleep with as many women as possible. I try to help guys find someone they can build something meaningful with. Copious amounts of sex come naturally with that.

You may not understand the analogy because it's kind of obvious that you can't relate. Understand that not all guys are looking for what you are trying to offer. The fact that you're in PUAland with the mentality that you are better than PUAs shows that there may not be enough of an audience for building something meaningful. Have you tried a relationship forum or maybe peddling your advice to the relationship section?

Quote:

Oh right, must be me, not the analogy. I must be oblivious to anything sports related...

Have you officially declared that PUAland is only for random hookups? Thank you, sire.

Of course, then start the cheap shots about "my being better" or what not. As far as I can tell, not everyone comes here for the same thing. And I'm referring to the newcomers, in particular, who ask questions and read this stuff for advice. They need an alternative opinion. Focus on what I'm saying, not me.

Oh right, must be me, not the analogy. I must be oblivious to anything sports related...

I agree...it's you and not the analogy. You couldn't relate because you went into coaching, passing the ball, and track records when the message was to go out and practice if you want to be good at picking up women. Just like you'd go out and practice if you want to be good at basketball. You have to understand the message before you can call it wrong.

Now...I've watched how you put words into Neo's mouth on another thread. I'm going to say this so you can understand. I never even implied that pickup is for random hookups.

You're wrong. This is a fun hobby. I treat it like basketball, or poker, or hell playing League of Legends. You can still treat women with a little basic human dignity while seeing the idea of pickup as a casual thing.

Nobody ever got great at something by putting as little effort into it as possible.

The analogy isn’t as horrible as the preposterous ones Neo threw out of comparing women to movies or other nonsense… but it’s still rather poor. Sport and attraction aren’t the same. Get over it. Setting up time to “go meet women” sounds desperate as hell. Go out and do things you enjoy doing. Meeting new people, including women can be part of that. That’s a healthier mindset by a mile. Interact with women in the meanwhile. Nothing lazy about that.

Analogies don't require the two things being compared to be the same, but I'm wasting time explaining that to you...you'd rather go down swinging. Truthfully, some guys will benefit from practice. It doesn't make them desperate even if that's your opinion(that judgemental statement alone is what I mean by you thinking you're better btw).
I'm not here to argue with you, the OP made his case and I get it and I understand where he's coming from. You don't like it and I'm fine with it. I'm not going to spend days on end explaining that to you.
If you want to help the new guys with your alternative point of view, why not start a thread with your point of view?

Autoregressive, you are part of the problem. Guys who are starting from scratch may need practice, and here you are calling me desperate for suggesting it.
Wthe reason I view pickup as a hobby is that I don't out pressure on myself to succeed with any individual woman. It's just a game...oh shit did I just point out why that slang term exists? And yeah, I'm a nerd. I'm a logical analytical thinker. Give me data accumulated over hours of practice as opposed to "just be cool man." You can call me names, as if we were still in high school. But what I'm talking about is the difference between getting laid and knowing how to get laid.

Author:	DJ_Z [ Wed Aug 31, 2016 2:19 am ]
Post subject:	Good ideas turned bad
Time for one of these again. I've talked about this before. Back when pickup first started to get some mainstream attention for guys like Mystery getting books on best-selling lists, the media went out of its way to portray the early innovators as the biggest creepers and losers possible. You name any guy that made his name in pickup from 2000 through 2008 that had decent book or video sales, and you can probably find an episode of Dr. Phil, that damn traitor, telling his audience why these were bad guys. Why is this important? Because as a countermeasure to this, the next wave of commercialized pickup advice turn on its predecessors. The new group basically agreed with that negative image, then said what they had to say was so much better. A lot of that new marketing was based on statements like "oh yeah we aren't into that weird pickup stuff, this is just a different lifestyle that's all about being cool and having fun." The problem is that, in an effort to show the world how much cooler they were, these guys were pretty awful teachers. To for those of you wanting to get better, I want to talk about two commonly held ideas that are filled with nonsense by being taken way too extreme. 1. Sarging - if that term is weird to you, just call it practice. Pickup involves some skills that you can learn over time if you put in the effort to learn. Sure, Kobe Bryant may have taken his first jump shot as a kid, and it was better than anybody else's first jumpshot ever attempted, but don't think for a second that he didn't spend hours practicing nearly every day growing up to become a great basketball player. Effort matters. The problem now, and I just encountered it on the other forum, is that guys too often say that sarging is weird. Oh, its weird, you should just be meeting girls naturally in your day to day life. And you can, and you should pursue opportunities whenever they come. But that's also a really lazy perspective if you are trying to get better. If you want to improve, you have to take the time and go practice. That means going where women are and talking, flirting, and attempting to fuck them. And on a related note: 2. Outcome independence has been warped so badly over time in the community. Guys now will tell you to be outcome independent and just not give a shit whether you get laid or not. Go have fun, if a girl likes you good, if not oh well. That's an awful way to improve at anything. To talk basketball again, do you think any coach looks at a blown defensive assignment and says to his player "well guess that'll happen sometimes." No, he teaches the kid how to defend better. Don't go out and freak if you don't get laid right away. Your goal needs to be mastery of the skills that will help you get laid, your goal does not need to be to get laid. Figure out what you suck at, find out what to change, and go implement that change until it becomes automatic. If you need to learn to hold eye contact, focus on mastering that skill, then move onto the next aspect. That's real outcome independence - focusing on the technique and not the result of practicing it. Hopefully this gets through to a couple people and makes their lives easier.

Author:	Autoregressive [ Wed Aug 31, 2016 4:45 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Good ideas turned bad
The basketball analogy really doesn't do the situation any justice. Practicing throwing a ball and attracting women have rather few similarities. One system has fairly specific techniques which can be taught and has real coaches with real success stories backing them. Very publicly visible results. Another is basically a system that preys on men's deepest insecurities with "coaches" with no verifiable track records. Human attraction is far more unpredictable and difficult to understand and teach when compared to basic sport technique.

Author:	JackZero [ Wed Aug 31, 2016 4:52 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Good ideas turned bad
Quote: The basketball analogy really doesn't do the situation any justice. Practicing throwing a ball and attracting women have rather few similarities. One system has fairly specific techniques which can be taught and has real coaches with real success stories backing them. Very publicly visible results. Another is basically a system that preys on men's deepest insecurities with "coaches" with no verifiable track records. Human attraction is far more unpredictable and difficult to understand and teach when compared to basic sport technique. You obviously never just played basketball at the park when you were a kid. No coaches...you just go out and play and get better. You know that you're good when you put some wins under your belt. Same thing as pickup. Contrary to what you may believe, you don't have to have a coach in order to become good at basketball or pickup.

Author:	GumShoe [ Wed Aug 31, 2016 4:53 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Good ideas turned bad
Quote: The basketball analogy really doesn't do the situation any justice. Practicing throwing a ball and attracting women have rather few similarities. One system has fairly specific techniques which can be taught and has real coaches with real success stories backing them. Very publicly visible results. Another is basically a system that preys on men's deepest insecurities with "coaches" with no verifiable track records. Human attraction is far more unpredictable and difficult to understand and teach when compared to basic sport technique. I get the sense that you're just a highly disagreeable person. Every time I see you posting, it's to tell someone how they're wrong. Literally every time.

Author:	JackZero [ Wed Aug 31, 2016 4:55 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Good ideas turned bad
Quote: Quote: The basketball analogy really doesn't do the situation any justice. Practicing throwing a ball and attracting women have rather few similarities. One system has fairly specific techniques which can be taught and has real coaches with real success stories backing them. Very publicly visible results. Another is basically a system that preys on men's deepest insecurities with "coaches" with no verifiable track records. Human attraction is far more unpredictable and difficult to understand and teach when compared to basic sport technique. I get the sense that you're just a highly disagreeable person. Every time I see you posting, it's to tell someone how they're wrong. Literally every time. I was thinking that exact same thing.

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Author:	Autoregressive [ Wed Aug 31, 2016 5:07 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Good ideas turned bad
Cry me a river guys, but if you take a few minutes to look through my posts you'll find "go with what they said" statements as well. Sometimes I won't even bother posting if I see that advice that I agree with was given. Are we all supposed to fist-bump and sing Kumbaya? Basketball isn't "pickup" or "game" - whatever the hell those even are. Yeah, semantics matter. No, meeting women isn't a sport. Unless you're obsessed with meeting women in an unhealthy, pathetic way. My mentality does completely differ from many PUAland folks - I don't think with my dick, try to spend as little effort and money as possible to sleep with as many women as possible. I try to help guys find someone they can build something meaningful with. Copious amounts of sex come naturally with that.

Author:	JackZero [ Wed Aug 31, 2016 5:28 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Good ideas turned bad
Quote: Cry me a river guys, but if you take a few minutes to look through my posts you'll find "go with what they said" statements as well. Sometimes I won't even bother posting if I see that advice that I agree with was given. Are we all supposed to fist-bump and sing Kumbaya? Basketball isn't "pickup" or "game" - whatever the hell those even are. Yeah, semantics matter. No, meeting women isn't a sport. Unless you're obsessed with meeting women in an unhealthy, pathetic way. My mentality does completely differ from many PUAland folks - I don't think with my dick, try to spend as little effort and money as possible to sleep with as many women as possible. I try to help guys find someone they can build something meaningful with. Copious amounts of sex come naturally with that. You may not understand the analogy because it's kind of obvious that you can't relate. Understand that not all guys are looking for what you are trying to offer. The fact that you're in PUAland with the mentality that you are better than PUAs shows that there may not be enough of an audience for building something meaningful. Have you tried a relationship forum or maybe peddling your advice to the relationship section?

Author:	JackZero [ Wed Aug 31, 2016 6:11 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Good ideas turned bad
Quote: Quote: You may not understand the analogy because it's kind of obvious that you can't relate. Understand that not all guys are looking for what you are trying to offer. The fact that you're in PUAland with the mentality that you are better than PUAs shows that there may not be enough of an audience for building something meaningful. Have you tried a relationship forum or maybe peddling your advice to the relationship section? Oh right, must be me, not the analogy. I must be oblivious to anything sports related... Have you officially declared that PUAland is only for random hookups? Thank you, sire. Of course, then start the cheap shots about "my being better" or what not. As far as I can tell, not everyone comes here for the same thing. And I'm referring to the newcomers, in particular, who ask questions and read this stuff for advice. They need an alternative opinion. Focus on what I'm saying, not me. I agree...it's you and not the analogy. You couldn't relate because you went into coaching, passing the ball, and track records when the message was to go out and practice if you want to be good at picking up women. Just like you'd go out and practice if you want to be good at basketball. You have to understand the message before you can call it wrong. Now...I've watched how you put words into Neo's mouth on another thread. I'm going to say this so you can understand. I never even implied that pickup is for random hookups.

Author:	DJ_Z [ Wed Aug 31, 2016 10:44 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Good ideas turned bad
Quote: Cry me a river guys, but if you take a few minutes to look through my posts you'll find "go with what they said" statements as well. Sometimes I won't even bother posting if I see that advice that I agree with was given. Are we all supposed to fist-bump and sing Kumbaya? Basketball isn't "pickup" or "game" - whatever the hell those even are. Yeah, semantics matter. No, meeting women isn't a sport. Unless you're obsessed with meeting women in an unhealthy, pathetic way. My mentality does completely differ from many PUAland folks - I don't think with my dick, try to spend as little effort and money as possible to sleep with as many women as possible. I try to help guys find someone they can build something meaningful with. Copious amounts of sex come naturally with that. You're wrong. This is a fun hobby. I treat it like basketball, or poker, or hell playing League of Legends. You can still treat women with a little basic human dignity while seeing the idea of pickup as a casual thing. Nobody ever got great at something by putting as little effort into it as possible.

Author:	GumShoe [ Wed Aug 31, 2016 6:01 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Good ideas turned bad
Quote: Oh right, must be me, not the analogy. I must be oblivious to anything sports related... Let's even say it's a bad analogy. I personally found it to be a stretch. I didn't see any need to come here and correct him on the analogy. If the analogy is off - so? I'm not saying "Never disagree with anyone". But I feel like the disagreement should at least have some substance. This just feels like petty nit-picking.

Author:	Autoregressive [ Thu Sep 01, 2016 6:09 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Good ideas turned bad
Quote: I agree...it's you and not the analogy. You couldn't relate because you went into coaching, passing the ball, and track records when the message was to go out and practice if you want to be good at picking up women. Just like you'd go out and practice if you want to be good at basketball. You have to understand the message before you can call it wrong. Now...I've watched how you put words into Neo's mouth on another thread. I'm going to say this so you can understand. I never even implied that pickup is for random hookups. The analogy isn’t as horrible as the preposterous ones Neo threw out of comparing women to movies or other nonsense… but it’s still rather poor. Sport and attraction aren’t the same. Get over it. Setting up time to “go meet women” sounds desperate as hell. Go out and do things you enjoy doing. Meeting new people, including women can be part of that. That’s a healthier mindset by a mile. Interact with women in the meanwhile. Nothing lazy about that. Quote: You're wrong. This is a fun hobby. I treat it like basketball, or poker, or hell playing League of Legends. You can still treat women with a little basic human dignity while seeing the idea of pickup as a casual thing. Nobody ever got great at something by putting as little effort into it as possible. Bahahah… Yeah, do you tell the women you meet that one of your hobbies is “meeting women?” I think not? You’ll be putting out all the effort you need to get “good” with women (attract them) if you actually go outside of your apartment/house once a day, provided that you engage in conversations with them (or attempt to) when the opportunity arises. I mean shit, what’s your goal here? To sleep with as many women as possible? Find an LTR? What’s not working that you have to make it a hobby?

Author:	JackZero [ Thu Sep 01, 2016 6:29 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Good ideas turned bad
Quote: The analogy isn’t as horrible as the preposterous ones Neo threw out of comparing women to movies or other nonsense… but it’s still rather poor. Sport and attraction aren’t the same. Get over it. Setting up time to “go meet women” sounds desperate as hell. Go out and do things you enjoy doing. Meeting new people, including women can be part of that. That’s a healthier mindset by a mile. Interact with women in the meanwhile. Nothing lazy about that. Analogies don't require the two things being compared to be the same, but I'm wasting time explaining that to you...you'd rather go down swinging. Truthfully, some guys will benefit from practice. It doesn't make them desperate even if that's your opinion(that judgemental statement alone is what I mean by you thinking you're better btw). I'm not here to argue with you, the OP made his case and I get it and I understand where he's coming from. You don't like it and I'm fine with it. I'm not going to spend days on end explaining that to you. If you want to help the new guys with your alternative point of view, why not start a thread with your point of view?

Author:	DJ_Z [ Thu Sep 01, 2016 1:47 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Good ideas turned bad
Autoregressive, you are part of the problem. Guys who are starting from scratch may need practice, and here you are calling me desperate for suggesting it. Wthe reason I view pickup as a hobby is that I don't out pressure on myself to succeed with any individual woman. It's just a game...oh shit did I just point out why that slang term exists? And yeah, I'm a nerd. I'm a logical analytical thinker. Give me data accumulated over hours of practice as opposed to "just be cool man." You can call me names, as if we were still in high school. But what I'm talking about is the difference between getting laid and knowing how to get laid.

Author:	Autoregressive [ Fri Sep 02, 2016 6:13 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Good ideas turned bad
Quote: Analogies don't require the two things being compared to be the same, but I'm wasting time explaining that to you...you'd rather go down swinging. Truthfully, some guys will benefit from practice. It doesn't make them desperate even if that's your opinion(that judgemental statement alone is what I mean by you thinking you're better btw). I'm not here to argue with you, the OP made his case and I get it and I understand where he's coming from. You don't like it and I'm fine with it. I'm not going to spend days on end explaining that to you. If you want to help the new guys with your alternative point of view, why not start a thread with your point of view? For the analogies to be effective, they have to be close, but I'm done with that point, too. Regarding desperation - maybe I wouldn't be the one to decide that alone, but I'm willing to wager that if that information was publicly known, that the majority of people, including women, would find it to be pretty pathetic. I didn't say practice is bad - practice is great. It's how you're approaching the 'practice' that's the issue. And regarding threads - if I find a gaping hole in the stickies here (some of which are very good - and actually attracted me to this forum over others) - or have some new idea to share, I will do that down the line. Quote: Autoregressive, you are part of the problem. Guys who are starting from scratch may need practice, and here you are calling me desperate for suggesting it. Wthe reason I view pickup as a hobby is that I don't out pressure on myself to succeed with any individual woman. It's just a game...oh shit did I just point out why that slang term exists? And yeah, I'm a nerd. I'm a logical analytical thinker. Give me data accumulated over hours of practice as opposed to "just be cool man." You can call me names, as if we were still in high school. But what I'm talking about is the difference between getting laid and knowing how to get laid. Once again, practice is great. How you approach practice is the issue. You still didn’t answer my question: What’s your goal here? To sleep with as many women as possible? Find an LTR? “Knowing how to get laid” – you understand there’s no rules, no book, no standard procedure, right? This is where you have to be humble and understand that human interactions can be erratic and unpredictable. I didn’t call you names – I described your behavior as I see it, and as I believe many others will see it. Focusing on improving yourself in realistic ways and meeting women along the way is the best way to go - and I'm not alone in suggesting this. Yes, this means dropping "pickup" (whatever that even means) as a "hobby." There’s reasons I say this: Speaking from experience, which includes the time after I got married, the less I actively cared about attracting women, the more I seemed to attract them. It could be a matter of perception... but it's the best I got. Fact of the matter is, once I had things going for me in my career, stayed in great shape and knew how to say something interesting – women were naturally attracted. It could be due to my having a good social circle via career and university connections. The point is simple: focusing on improving yourself is a better plan for long term success in life. Women will naturally gravitate toward you.

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