One area I know is quite weak of mine is my value. I don't have value issues with girls, I can always DHV to them so that's never been an issue.

It's more of an issue with my guy friends. There's 2 guy friends I have who I know like to think they're above me.

You know in PUA, how we say don't always directly answer a girls question, ignore her in certain situations etc well we all know the affect it has. Well there's a couple of guys, who are familiar with The Game, that do this to me. They do it when we're out for a night and try to look superior to me in front of people.

I can see exactly what they're trying to do, they already see me as 'below' them and want to keep it that way. They give me some banter, I do have come backs which would hit them back a lot harder. And this normally doesn't bother me and I'll always hit someone back harder, but because these 2 guys because they see me as of lower status than them, I see them as higher. And I get needy to them, and won't hit them back with the banter.

It's only these 2 guys mainly, happens every now and then with other guys. As I said, it doesn't affect my game but when we're out together and us 3 start talking to girls I'm sure it shows, not good.

Not sure how I got to this situation, maybe because they are a lot older than me. Or maybe because they see me as an easy target as I never have been quick with come backs when having lad banter. An example would be, they'd poke fun of my weight, being underweight, and it would take me a good few minutes to think of a come back and that obviously doesn't count, so it gives them the upper hand. Or they'd embarrass me in public somehow.

Help on how to break out of this and give myself more value for my guy friends?

Of course there's the argument of not being friends with people who don't bring value to your life, and yeah I don't spend much time with them at all because of this. But regardless, I still want to fix the root of the problem this will just keep happening.

Value = perceived benefit / price

You can try to demonstrate your value all you'd like by advertising the benefit of your presence, friendship, even proximity but if they do not understand your value proposition, it's over.

Let's switch this around and try out an exercise. You go to the store and see a new laptop and check out its features. How much BENEFIT does that computer give you in $ figures? Want to know how much? Well let's say the laptop was priced $10,000, would you buy it? No, but if it's was $100, you'd buy it right away. So your personal benefit in $ figure would be somewhere between 100 and 10k. The people who sell computers know YOUR PERSONAL perceived benefit $ figure better than you do. This is why you probably own a laptop. Are you following me?

As a presenter of yourself, the goal is to demonstrate a HIGH PERCEIVED BENEFIT for being with you, being your friend, partying with you, working with you, and yes, in the case of women, even benefits of fucking you. And the price? Well, it's got to be less than the cost of the perceived benefit doesn't it?

You already know people who do ^this well without even knowing how/why this is happening. Well, I am telling you how/why and this is it. People are not inherently great or inherently evil. They simply don't give a rats ass about anything that does no affect them one way or another. Offer them a decent value proposition and they'll surround you like a bunch of union guys surround a bond fire on a January strike. Offer them a poor value proposition (less than 1.00) and they'll keep you around enough to meet their needs. Offer them a negative value proposition and they will look to hurt you.

If you can digest ^this, we can move on to strategy.

Ok I get it. So basically, I've got to demonstrate that I give a lot to people. And what I appear to give to others, must 'cost' me less than what I'm giving. So in words of money, I'm profiting.

What about this strategy?

Nothing more and nothing less than what those 2 guys I described in my first post can offer.

So nothing more than the average person, my few mates say I'm the best person to go clubbing with as we always end up with some good story to tell after. That's easy for me, as I'm just myself.

I'm just the average person in terms of what I offer. Maybe that's my folley.

Nothing more and nothing less than what those 2 guys I described in my first post can offer.

So nothing more than the average person, my few mates say I'm the best person to go clubbing with as we always end up with some good story to tell after. That's easy for me, as I'm just myself.

Nothing = nothing. And are you curious at all as to why your friends are also "nothing"?

I am definitely more than "average". Very good name for myself in my career etc and I am fully aware of what I bring to the table. Socially, I'm not aware of what it is I bring to the table. I couldn't even tell you what other people bring to the table, it's a hard question.

I have a good value, good friends, well liked etc.

My goal in this thread was to somehow figure out what is was that set the 2 blokes into seeing me of lower value to them. Probably picked a misleading name for thread title.

One area I know is quite weak of mine is my value. I don't have value issues with girls, I can always DHV to them so that's never been an issue.

It's more of an issue with my guy friends. There's 2 guy friends I have who I know like to think they're above me.

You know in PUA, how we say don't always directly answer a girls question, ignore her in certain situations etc well we all know the affect it has. Well there's a couple of guys, who are familiar with The Game, that do this to me. They do it when we're out for a night and try to look superior to me in front of people.

I can see exactly what they're trying to do, they already see me as 'below' them and want to keep it that way. They give me some banter, I do have come backs which would hit them back a lot harder. And this normally doesn't bother me and I'll always hit someone back harder, but because these 2 guys because they see me as of lower status than them, I see them as higher. And I get needy to them, and won't hit them back with the banter.

It's only these 2 guys mainly, happens every now and then with other guys. As I said, it doesn't affect my game but when we're out together and us 3 start talking to girls I'm sure it shows, not good.

Not sure how I got to this situation, maybe because they are a lot older than me. Or maybe because they see me as an easy target as I never have been quick with come backs when having lad banter. An example would be, they'd poke fun of my weight, being underweight, and it would take me a good few minutes to think of a come back and that obviously doesn't count, so it gives them the upper hand. Or they'd embarrass me in public somehow.

Help on how to break out of this and give myself more value for my guy friends?

Of course there's the argument of not being friends with people who don't bring value to your life, and yeah I don't spend much time with them at all because of this. But regardless, I still want to fix the root of the problem this will just keep happening.

You're looking at this from a traditional pick up arts point of view through the lenses of DHVs and being an alpha male which has the highest value. Since you're looking at it this way, then it becomes a problem which is causing you this stress.

But if you want to be happier, let's look at this from what happens naturally in human societies. As the cliche goes, you can look at a glass of water either as half full or half empty. One point of view can make you sad while the opposite can make you happy depending on how you frame what you see.

Some marketing genius read up on alpha male gorillas or wolves and decided to package the concept as a book product. Hence, the alpha male is now a profitable concept that sells bootcamps, books, DVDs and what have you.

In gorilla societies and most primate species except humans, there can only be one alpha male; the rest will be beta males and the position doesn't last for very long. An alpha male monkey can only sustain his position for 6 months more or less.

Human societies are different, more complex, and multidimensional compared to gorilla societies. Each man or woman has a specific role to play. In some roles, a guy can play the alpha male role while in others, he has to play the beta male role. That's just fine because that's how human societies work through cooperation and collaboration.

When a police officer stops your car and shouts, "Put both of your hands on the steering wheel where I can see them," it would do you good to play the beta male role, apologize profusely to the police officer and keep your head low to show that he is the alpha male in this situation and that you are the beta male. Often times, the policeman will be happy that you're treating him right as the alpha male and instead of giving you a $300 ticket, he'll usually end up just giving you a brief lecture on traffic rules and then pat you on the back and say, "Take care. Have a good day, sir."

Now, when you go to church, even when you disagree with the priest's or pastor's sermon, it will do you good to raise your hands to the roof and just say, "Amen. Praise the Lord!" than go into an aggressive, passionate debate on why you disagree with the priest's sermon. Inside the church, the pastor is the alpha male while all of the guy church goers are the beta males. This way, you keep the priest happy and all of the women religious flock secure and comfortable in your presence as you rub your dick at the ass of a well dressed religious babe that you have been sarging for quite some time. You're happy and everybody's happy.

If you have a career, the normal set up is about the same. Your boss will be the alpha male in your company but when it's time to take out a bank loan for the payroll or convince investors to put in their money for expanding the business, your boss will betatize himself with the bank manager to successfully secure the payroll loan or kowtow like a cheap whore to the investors to leverage other people's money.

You get the point.

Now, let's focus on a smaller cell of the social circle.

In your neighborhood, you'll notice that you will have several sets of friends. In some sets, you will play the alpha male role while in other sets, you're just comfortable to be in the beta male role. That's just fine and perfectly normal.

I have a set of guy friends where we have a default alpha male. He talks the loudest, which is just fine. He betatizes us in front of some people sometimes and that's just okay. We boost up his ego and listen to his DHVs but when he gets drunk, he cries like a baby. But since he's the boss when we hangout and he feels really good around us, he always ends up footing the big bill and drives each and everyone of us home. He's happy and we're happy. Sometimes, I can even ask a personal loan from him and he refuses to accept my payment every time. When some of the guys are looking for a job, he also gives the best recommendations.

Now, it doesn't mean that since he's the alpha male and the guy with the highest DHV in our set of friends, he always keeps his women happy. Nah. A neighborhood bum was banging his wife since our friend was too busy trying to sustain his alpha male role in his career and with many of his friends.

But hey, the neighborhood bum surely did get what he deserved. Our friend is the alpha male, right? He has so many friends who are more than happy to keep the score even. But still, our friend's wife continued to cheat on him. Fuck. That's just the way it is, I guess.

My point?

Look at DHV and being alpha from a multi-dimensional human society perspective instead of looking at it from a gorilla society perspective that the most vocal PUAs around here package as the truth. The stereotypical gorilla alpha male that I see on YouTube videos don't look that happy at all. In fact, they look so angry most of the time.



P.S.

I forgot to tell you that my alpha male example is a college buddy in our fraternity. You're getting the perspective of someone who is an insider.

Essentially, what he is saying.... Know your rank. And if you don't like your rank, work hard to be better than the guy above you. Your true colors eventually show through.