PUA Forum :: The Balloon

The Balloon (A Love, Dipped In and Filled With Pleasure, Pattern)
By: SISRAHTAC
Well ya know that feeling… deep inside… when YOU ARE SO ENGULFED BY ATTRACTION TOWARDS A PERSON. (Self- point)… the feeling ya get when YOU’RE IN LOVE. But, you don’t quite REALIZE YOU’RE IN LOVE. The feeling is so overwhelming, yet so incredibly insatiable that you IMAGINE YOURSELF WITH THIS PERSON. (Self- point) And the more you IMAGINE the more YOU WANT THIS PERSON (Lock eyes)… and the more you’d DO ANYTHING TO GIVE THIS PERSON PLEASURE, like you’re having. You know that feeling?
And yet, you resist your urges to GIVE INTO THE PLEASURE. Ultimately, you ALLOW THAT FEELING TO KEEP GROWING… AND GROWING... AND GROWING until you FEEL AS IF YOU’RE GONNA BURST… But then, a sense of clarity comes over you and you are able to RELAX. Everything seems so tranquil and at rest, like the calm before a storm. Feels good doesn’t it?
Suddenly, you FIND YOURSELF OVERWHELMED BY PLEASURE AND PASSION, but this time you DECIDE YOU CANNOT BOTTLE IT UP any longer. You just have to LET IT OUT.
*When used in accordance with congruent gesture, etc, females may even come.*

Quote:

I know some pretty hot women, and if someone were to say that to them they would probably laugh in his face. I'd say it's the same for most women I've met. I can only see that being pulled of if you're some sort of Don Juan, love guru or one of those energy/healing types.

Where is the subtlety? Why not be covert? The tools are out there to achieve the same effect you're going for in a conversational, "normal" way. Why waste time and energy to designing a context in which to say that when you could achieve so much more, so much easier, with less chance of spooking her out?

I may sound harsh, but I'm sick of hypnosis being taught in an ineffective way, when the information is out there to do it much better, beyond patterns or techniques.

EDIT That aside, would anyone here even have the balls to say that to a woman? I consider myself direct, and really only into daygame (for now) so it's not like I'm afraid to tell a girl how I feel, or that I want sexy time. This is WAY less scary than dropping that pattern bomb on a girl.

Depending on the girl, this could definitely work. This would of course be dependent on many variables. In short, if you have built up fascination/intrigue/connection and shes getting into it (showing signs of hypnotic phenomena) and a pretty sexual person, I'd go for it.

It is important enough to stress again that you shouldn't open with something like this, context is key. Also, be careful in your wording. I just made a post that mentioned the power of negation. Unbelievably powerful, but also can definitely work against you. If "Don't feel really excited" makes someone "feel really excited", then "Cannot bottle it up" makes someone "bottle it up". Always phrase in the positive

Do you not think that by the time you've created a context where that could be useful you've wasted too much time? Aside form that, I want to be the kind of person who flexible enough with their environment or the context to work with it.

It's an urban myth that the unconscious cannot comprehend negation.

I love the phrase "wasted time". NLP does not work like a magical incantation, you don't start to utter the words and instantly a few commands have changed her entire perception of you. SS is far more effective if a girl invests in the interaction, usually before the stage in the seduction where you would use your pattern.

If you create intense sexual desire in the average girl, they won't understand where the feelings are coming from, they will get scared and leave. Also, busting stuff like this out in the beginning is, IMHO, kinda creepy.

It would work, however, if she was just up for sex anyway

Don't think of a pink elephant. What have you done?
The unconscious does not understand negation.

Even if evidence comes out in the future that it does, I assure you that "Don't feel scared and afraid" is less effective than "Feel calm and reassured".

Quote:

I think you've missed my point. I didn't say that NLP works like that. My point is about how much investment and framing needs to be done for a pattern like that (and most patterns I've heard) to be effective. There's so much you could be doing instead to escalate further. Why take a Fiat Panda to a race when you've a Ferrari in the garage? Essentially - Do more, Achieve less

A place for everything and everything in its place.
I agree that doing too much can be counter productive. However, if you do not build some kind of intrigue/connection with the girl before hand and jump right into this on average I say you will fail. If you go out and do this by itself and it works most of the time please correct me.

Quote:

That's a bit of a cop out, isn't it? In that situation anything would do, so the pattern doesn't mean anything anyway.

Thats exactly what im saying. I am saying that if you just go up to a girl and use your language BEFORE creating any kind of rapport, trust, connection or anything, any success you get will be from this. However, the pattern does mean something as it is bringing up that sexual imagery. If you approached like an AFC probably nothing would happen.

Quote:

That's because I have to think of it to know what not to think of.

Exactly, and by doing so followed the command without the negative. Because, you don't NOT think about the pink elephant, even though i told you not to.

Quote:

It's a hairline shift away from not understanding it but in the fine scheme of things it does lead to different implications at times.

Please give an example.

Quote:

I've been to a great hypnotist who directly commanded people "not" to do certain things (habits, beliefs, etc...). Needless to say I had a lot to say about that but at the end of the day his results couldn't be argued with.

While I may not be as great of a hypnotist as your friend, I am a practicing hypnotherapist who went through quite extensive training. I would very much doubt that the hypnotist gave commands like "stop smoking" and more like "you are now smoke free, a non-smoker". A hypnotist uses the tools of hypnosis to bring about change, but by saying he got someone to stop doing something means the unconscious can understand negation is incorrect (if that is your assumption).

There are two popular to 'cure' smokers in my experience. One is to associate it with something the client hates and inducing something similar to a gag reflex when they attempt to smoke. I personally find this to be unethical and not long lasting as the association will go away if constantly tested by the client. My method has always been to have the client imagine their family and friends surrounding them as they tell them they are terminal. To get that kind of emotional reaction is much more powerful and MUCH longer lasting. However, in both these methods, I have always seen suggestions phrased in the positive.

Quote:

EDIT Evidence to disprove something? No, big claims need big proof - nobody's job to disprove it, it's the people claiming it who need to prove it.

Don't think of a pink elephant. What have you done?
The unconscious does not understand negation. Even if evidence comes out in the future that it does, I assure you that "Don't feel scared and afraid" is less effective than "Feel calm and reassured".

I don't see where this fits in. If the general consensus is that the unconscious doesn't understand negation, you must provide evidence to make the opposite claim as others have already put forward evidence for the consensus (hence it being the consensus).

Exactly, and by doing so followed the command without the negative. Because, you don't NOT think about the pink elephant, even though i told you not to.

It's a hairline shift away from not understanding it but in the fine scheme of things it does lead to different implications at times.

There are two popular to 'cure' smokers in my experience. One is to associate it with something the client hates and inducing something similar to a gag reflex when they attempt to smoke. I personally find this to be unethical and not long lasting as the association will go away if constantly tested by the client. My method has always been to have the client imagine their family and friends surrounding them as they tell them they are terminal. To get that kind of emotional reaction is much more powerful and MUCH longer lasting. However, in both these methods, I have always seen suggestions phrased in the positive.

TL;DR: Everyone will have their own idea of what the unconscious can and cannot do from both personal experience and through others' experiences. The unconscious is a very complex thing, it is quite likely we will never understand its full scope. However, one thing we do know is this. When using a negation which deals with sensory information (eg Don't think of the pink elephant) our unconscious automatically brings this to life in our mind. When it comes to something like "Don't forget to clean your room" it might become a little different. However, for our purposes, I believe it is better to err on the side of caution, and always phrase suggestions in the positive.

Author:	SISRAHTAC [ Thu Feb 17, 2011 11:08 pm ]
Post subject:	The Balloon
The Balloon (A Love, Dipped In and Filled With Pleasure, Pattern) By: SISRAHTAC Well ya know that feeling… deep inside… when YOU ARE SO ENGULFED BY ATTRACTION TOWARDS A PERSON. (Self- point)… the feeling ya get when YOU’RE IN LOVE. But, you don’t quite REALIZE YOU’RE IN LOVE. The feeling is so overwhelming, yet so incredibly insatiable that you IMAGINE YOURSELF WITH THIS PERSON. (Self- point) And the more you IMAGINE the more YOU WANT THIS PERSON (Lock eyes)… and the more you’d DO ANYTHING TO GIVE THIS PERSON PLEASURE, like you’re having. You know that feeling? And yet, you resist your urges to GIVE INTO THE PLEASURE. Ultimately, you ALLOW THAT FEELING TO KEEP GROWING… AND GROWING... AND GROWING until you FEEL AS IF YOU’RE GONNA BURST… But then, a sense of clarity comes over you and you are able to RELAX. Everything seems so tranquil and at rest, like the calm before a storm. Feels good doesn’t it? Suddenly, you FIND YOURSELF OVERWHELMED BY PLEASURE AND PASSION, but this time you DECIDE YOU CANNOT BOTTLE IT UP any longer. You just have to LET IT OUT. When used in accordance with congruent gesture, etc, females may even come.

Author:	Pinocchio [ Sat Feb 19, 2011 3:47 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: The Balloon
Quote: The Balloon (A Love, Dipped In and Filled With Pleasure, Pattern) By: SISRAHTAC Well ya know that feeling… deep inside… when YOU ARE SO ENGULFED BY ATTRACTION TOWARDS A PERSON. (Self- point)… the feeling ya get when YOU’RE IN LOVE. But, you don’t quite REALIZE YOU’RE IN LOVE. The feeling is so overwhelming, yet so incredibly insatiable that you IMAGINE YOURSELF WITH THIS PERSON. (Self- point) And the more you IMAGINE the more YOU WANT THIS PERSON (Lock eyes)… and the more you’d DO ANYTHING TO GIVE THIS PERSON PLEASURE, like you’re having. You know that feeling? And yet, you resist your urges to GIVE INTO THE PLEASURE. Ultimately, you ALLOW THAT FEELING TO KEEP GROWING… AND GROWING... AND GROWING until you FEEL AS IF YOU’RE GONNA BURST… But then, a sense of clarity comes over you and you are able to RELAX. Everything seems so tranquil and at rest, like the calm before a storm. Feels good doesn’t it? Suddenly, you FIND YOURSELF OVERWHELMED BY PLEASURE AND PASSION, but this time you DECIDE YOU CANNOT BOTTLE IT UP any longer. You just have to LET IT OUT. When used in accordance with congruent gesture, etc, females may even come. I know some pretty hot women, and if someone were to say that to them they would probably laugh in his face. I'd say it's the same for most women I've met. I can only see that being pulled of if you're some sort of Don Juan, love guru or one of those energy/healing types. Where is the subtlety? Why not be covert? The tools are out there to achieve the same effect you're going for in a conversational, "normal" way. Why waste time and energy to designing a context in which to say that when you could achieve so much more, so much easier, with less chance of spooking her out? I may sound harsh, but I'm sick of hypnosis being taught in an ineffective way, when the information is out there to do it much better, beyond patterns or techniques. EDIT That aside, would anyone here even have the balls to say that to a woman? I consider myself direct, and really only into daygame (for now) so it's not like I'm afraid to tell a girl how I feel, or that I want sexy time. This is WAY less scary than dropping that pattern bomb on a girl.

Author:	Ali5400 [ Sun Feb 20, 2011 10:04 am ]
Post subject:	Re: The Balloon
Quote: Quote: The Balloon (A Love, Dipped In and Filled With Pleasure, Pattern) By: SISRAHTAC Well ya know that feeling… deep inside… when YOU ARE SO ENGULFED BY ATTRACTION TOWARDS A PERSON. (Self- point)… the feeling ya get when YOU’RE IN LOVE. But, you don’t quite REALIZE YOU’RE IN LOVE. The feeling is so overwhelming, yet so incredibly insatiable that you IMAGINE YOURSELF WITH THIS PERSON. (Self- point) And the more you IMAGINE the more YOU WANT THIS PERSON (Lock eyes)… and the more you’d DO ANYTHING TO GIVE THIS PERSON PLEASURE, like you’re having. You know that feeling? And yet, you resist your urges to GIVE INTO THE PLEASURE. Ultimately, you ALLOW THAT FEELING TO KEEP GROWING… AND GROWING... AND GROWING until you FEEL AS IF YOU’RE GONNA BURST… But then, a sense of clarity comes over you and you are able to RELAX. Everything seems so tranquil and at rest, like the calm before a storm. Feels good doesn’t it? Suddenly, you FIND YOURSELF OVERWHELMED BY PLEASURE AND PASSION, but this time you DECIDE YOU CANNOT BOTTLE IT UP any longer. You just have to LET IT OUT. When used in accordance with congruent gesture, etc, females may even come. I know some pretty hot women, and if someone were to say that to them they would probably laugh in his face. I'd say it's the same for most women I've met. I can only see that being pulled of if you're some sort of Don Juan, love guru or one of those energy/healing types. Where is the subtlety? Why not be covert? The tools are out there to achieve the same effect you're going for in a conversational, "normal" way. Why waste time and energy to designing a context in which to say that when you could achieve so much more, so much easier, with less chance of spooking her out? I may sound harsh, but I'm sick of hypnosis being taught in an ineffective way, when the information is out there to do it much better, beyond patterns or techniques. EDIT That aside, would anyone here even have the balls to say that to a woman? I consider myself direct, and really only into daygame (for now) so it's not like I'm afraid to tell a girl how I feel, or that I want sexy time. This is WAY less scary than dropping that pattern bomb on a girl. Personally,I might actually use it if it was reported to have good results,albeit edited.That said I may not have the guts to say it face to face to a woman as it'll be ackward for me and her.So Pinocchio maybe you could share a better/convert pattern for all of us?

Author:	Pinocchio [ Sun Feb 20, 2011 11:37 am ]
Post subject:	Re: The Balloon
I wouldn't use a pattern. There's so much I could be doing to esculate as fast as possible, trying to push the boundaries of what she's comfortable with. As for somewhat hypnotic elements, I would use the fundamental formula for hypnosis. Absorb attention, bypass critical factor, and stimulate unconscious (thank you Igor for breaking it down!). I wont dwell to much on this, the informations out there, but to absorb attention covertly I'll tell you this: The idea is to speak in a way that people can't help but be fascinated with, to use your voice tone to draw people in. It's ridiculous that people still use a hypnotic voice when trying to do covert hypnosis. It's meant to be a dynamic, expressive voice, eg. making long words "L-L-O-O-N-N-G-G", emphasizing certain words, etc... The same applies to gestures, facial gestures, mannerisms, etc... Don't look at other hypnotists for this, look for great orators, actors, or charismatic people you know. One of my favorite examples of this is Jude Law (just about any movie he's done, but Alfie would be most relelvant). As for the language, you should build sexual frames early on, use *future projections/future memories (I've stopped using these in most cases), instead of lots of direct suggestions and patterns I might use priming and link it back to me (inspired by Beckster's Prming, Effect and Association). I could write forever on this, but I've noticed that the blatant hypnotic elements are dropping away from what I use, and all that's left is little nuances. This is what I believe to be conversational.

Author:	Memento [ Wed Feb 23, 2011 4:39 pm ]
Post subject:
Depending on the girl, this could definitely work. This would of course be dependent on many variables. In short, if you have built up fascination/intrigue/connection and shes getting into it (showing signs of hypnotic phenomena) and a pretty sexual person, I'd go for it. It is important enough to stress again that you shouldn't open with something like this, context is key. Also, be careful in your wording. I just made a post that mentioned the power of negation. Unbelievably powerful, but also can definitely work against you. If "Don't feel really excited" makes someone "feel really excited", then "Cannot bottle it up" makes someone "bottle it up". Always phrase in the positive

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Author:	Pinocchio [ Wed Feb 23, 2011 4:57 pm ]
Post subject:
Quote: Depending on the girl, this could definitely work. This would of course be dependent on many variables. In short, if you have built up fascination/intrigue/connection and shes getting into it (showing signs of hypnotic phenomena) and a pretty sexual person, I'd go for it. It is important enough to stress again that you shouldn't open with something like this, context is key. Also, be careful in your wording. I just made a post that mentioned the power of negation. Unbelievably powerful, but also can definitely work against you. If "Don't feel really excited" makes someone "feel really excited", then "Cannot bottle it up" makes someone "bottle it up". Always phrase in the positive Do you not think that by the time you've created a context where that could be useful you've wasted too much time? Aside form that, I want to be the kind of person who flexible enough with their environment or the context to work with it. In my experience, negation doesn't quite work that way. I like your examples though, and all of them could work. It's an urban myth that the unconscious cannot comprehend negation.

Author:	Memento [ Wed Feb 23, 2011 5:30 pm ]
Post subject:
Quote: Do you not think that by the time you've created a context where that could be useful you've wasted too much time? Aside form that, I want to be the kind of person who flexible enough with their environment or the context to work with it. I love the phrase "wasted time". NLP does not work like a magical incantation, you don't start to utter the words and instantly a few commands have changed her entire perception of you. SS is far more effective if a girl invests in the interaction, usually before the stage in the seduction where you would use your pattern. If you create intense sexual desire in the average girl, they won't understand where the feelings are coming from, they will get scared and leave. Also, busting stuff like this out in the beginning is, IMHO, kinda creepy. It would work, however, if she was just up for sex anyway. Quote: It's an urban myth that the unconscious cannot comprehend negation. Don't think of a pink elephant. What have you done? The unconscious does not understand negation. Even if evidence comes out in the future that it does, I assure you that "Don't feel scared and afraid" is less effective than "Feel calm and reassured".

Author:	Pinocchio [ Wed Feb 23, 2011 7:56 pm ]
Post subject:
Quote: I love the phrase "wasted time". NLP does not work like a magical incantation, you don't start to utter the words and instantly a few commands have changed her entire perception of you. SS is far more effective if a girl invests in the interaction, usually before the stage in the seduction where you would use your pattern. I think you've missed my point. I didn't say that NLP works like that. My point is about how much investment and framing needs to be done for a pattern like that (and most patterns I've heard) to be effective. There's so much you could be doing instead to escalate further. Why take a Fiat Panda to a race when you've a Ferrari in the garage? Essentially - Do more, Achieve less Quote: If you create intense sexual desire in the average girl, they won't understand where the feelings are coming from, they will get scared and leave. Also, busting stuff like this out in the beginning is, IMHO, kinda creepy. Absolutely. I have experienced this. I think it can equally apply to general attraction - you know the girl is loving the interaction but she keeps making excuses to go. By the same token, there's no real way of telling how often it is their desire that's spooking them out or if it actually is about you. Quote: It would work, however, if she was just up for sex anyway That's a bit of a cop out, isn't it? In that situation anything would do, so the pattern doesn't mean anything anyway. Quote: Don't think of a pink elephant. What have you done? The unconscious does not understand negation. That's because I have to think of it to know what not to think of. It's a hairline shift away from not understanding it but in the fine scheme of things it does lead to different implications at times. I've been to a great hypnotist who directly commanded people "not" to do certain things (habits, beliefs, etc...). Needless to say I had a lot to say about that but at the end of the day his results couldn't be argued with. Quote: Even if evidence comes out in the future that it does, I assure you that "Don't feel scared and afraid" is less effective than "Feel calm and reassured". For sure, I wasn't making a comparison. EDIT Evidence to disprove something? No, big claims need big proof - nobody's job to disprove it, it's the people claiming it who need to prove it.

Author:	Memento [ Wed Feb 23, 2011 10:13 pm ]
Post subject:
Quote: Quote: I think you've missed my point. I didn't say that NLP works like that. My point is about how much investment and framing needs to be done for a pattern like that (and most patterns I've heard) to be effective. There's so much you could be doing instead to escalate further. Why take a Fiat Panda to a race when you've a Ferrari in the garage? Essentially - Do more, Achieve less A place for everything and everything in its place. I agree that doing too much can be counter productive. However, if you do not build some kind of intrigue/connection with the girl before hand and jump right into this on average I say you will fail. If you go out and do this by itself and it works most of the time please correct me. Quote: That's a bit of a cop out, isn't it? In that situation anything would do, so the pattern doesn't mean anything anyway. Thats exactly what im saying. I am saying that if you just go up to a girl and use your language BEFORE creating any kind of rapport, trust, connection or anything, any success you get will be from this. However, the pattern does mean something as it is bringing up that sexual imagery. If you approached like an AFC probably nothing would happen. Quote: That's because I have to think of it to know what not to think of. Exactly, and by doing so followed the command without the negative. Because, you don't NOT think about the pink elephant, even though i told you not to. Quote: It's a hairline shift away from not understanding it but in the fine scheme of things it does lead to different implications at times. Please give an example. Quote: I've been to a great hypnotist who directly commanded people "not" to do certain things (habits, beliefs, etc...). Needless to say I had a lot to say about that but at the end of the day his results couldn't be argued with. While I may not be as great of a hypnotist as your friend, I am a practicing hypnotherapist who went through quite extensive training. I would very much doubt that the hypnotist gave commands like "stop smoking" and more like "you are now smoke free, a non-smoker". A hypnotist uses the tools of hypnosis to bring about change, but by saying he got someone to stop doing something means the unconscious can understand negation is incorrect (if that is your assumption). There are two popular to 'cure' smokers in my experience. One is to associate it with something the client hates and inducing something similar to a gag reflex when they attempt to smoke. I personally find this to be unethical and not long lasting as the association will go away if constantly tested by the client. My method has always been to have the client imagine their family and friends surrounding them as they tell them they are terminal. To get that kind of emotional reaction is much more powerful and MUCH longer lasting. However, in both these methods, I have always seen suggestions phrased in the positive. Quote: EDIT Evidence to disprove something? No, big claims need big proof - nobody's job to disprove it, it's the people claiming it who need to prove it. I don't see where this fits in. If the general consensus is that the unconscious doesn't understand negation, you must provide evidence to make the opposite claim as others have already put forward evidence for the consensus (hence it being the consensus). TL;DR: Everyone will have their own idea of what the unconscious can and cannot do from both personal experience and through others' experiences. The unconscious is a very complex thing, it is quite likely we will never understand its full scope. However, one thing we do know is this. When using a negation which deals with sensory information (eg Don't think of the pink elephant) our unconscious automatically brings this to life in our mind. When it comes to something like "Don't forget to clean your room" it might become a little different. However, for our purposes, I believe it is better to err on the side of caution, and always phrase suggestions in the positive.

Author:	Yeah, I'm All That [ Thu Feb 24, 2011 8:25 am ]
Post subject:
Quote: Don't think of a pink elephant. What have you done? The unconscious does not understand negation. Even if evidence comes out in the future that it does, I assure you that "Don't feel scared and afraid" is less effective than "Feel calm and reassured". It's all a lot more complicated than that. As far as the "scared/afraid" - "calm/reassured" they trigger positive and negative feelings all by themselves....speaking of which: "Correlation does not equal causation". You can easily and clearly become aware that your unconscious mind understands that phrase quite readily. You may also notice that your unconscious mind instantaneously connects that sentence with the previous one and feels strongly compelled to ponder this connection in a deep way. I also confidently and assuredly guarantee that your unconscious mind smoothly processed the negation created by the juxtaposition of those two sentences. Also, you're missing the obvious evidence that you provided which invalidates that theory "don't think of your mind understanding negation". "Don't think of being in the middle of the highway with a broom being shoved up your butt while a elephant in front of you pleasures your junk with its' trunk". Did you really picture it or did your critical factor block? Rapport, Critical Factor/Mind, the phrasing, deep morals/beliefs all have effects on whether the mind allows any particular picture/idea/symbol to form or be triggered. The "negation not processed thing" is also the center of a comedy routine http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_83MEuLoz9Y (Kids in the Hall "Never Put Salt In Your Eyes") The unconscious DOES understand negation. Like for instance, if your subconscious detects a subtle threat, it'll send a "don't" or "you shouldn't" signal which should be impossible if the subconscious were unaware of what "don't" means. The mind doesn't understand the complete non-existence of something (like as in "never existed"), but that's a different matter.

Author:	Pinocchio [ Thu Feb 24, 2011 10:50 am ]
Post subject:
Quote: A place for everything and everything in its place. I agree that doing too much can be counter productive. However, if you do not build some kind of intrigue/connection with the girl before hand and jump right into this on average I say you will fail. If you go out and do this by itself and it works most of the time please correct me. I think we're sort of agreeing here. My point is that through my speech, my energy, where I'm coming from the intrigue/connection is built naturally. I'm constantly esculating and moving the interaction forward. During the day, where I do most of my gaming, you've got to pick up on every cue that you're getting and to go off into a pattern would detract from the interaction. Beyond that, nobody speaks that way, the girl will find it strange in most cases (unless a suitable context is established). Even still, given the nature of social dyamics, there's ALWAYS going to be something more appropriate to say that'll esculate further, achieving the same result in less time and less risk. Quote: Thats exactly what im saying. I am saying that if you just go up to a girl and use your language BEFORE creating any kind of rapport, trust, connection or anything, any success you get will be from this. However, the pattern does mean something as it is bringing up that sexual imagery. If you approached like an AFC probably nothing would happen. Ok, so we're agreed. Quote: Exactly, and by doing so followed the command without the negative. Because, you don't NOT think about the pink elephant, even though i told you not to. Yeah, I'm All That explained it beautifully. Quote: It's a hairline shift away from not understanding it but in the fine scheme of things it does lead to different implications at times. See above Quote: While I may not be as great of a hypnotist as your friend, I am a practicing hypnotherapist who went through quite extensive training. I would very much doubt that the hypnotist gave commands like "stop smoking" and more like "you are now smoke free, a non-smoker". A hypnotist uses the tools of hypnosis to bring about change, but by saying he got someone to stop doing something means the unconscious can understand negation is incorrect (if that is your assumption). I don't doubt your abilities, perhaps you do a great job. I have experience in both hypnosis and NLP (and it's no lie to say that NLP often has to be taken with a pinch of salt). My point was exactly that. He used commands such as "you will stop smoking", "You don't want a ciggarette", etc. I agree that phrasing it in a more positive way might work better, but it still works. Which begs the question, "is it really better then?" Quote: There are two popular to 'cure' smokers in my experience. One is to associate it with something the client hates and inducing something similar to a gag reflex when they attempt to smoke. I personally find this to be unethical and not long lasting as the association will go away if constantly tested by the client. My method has always been to have the client imagine their family and friends surrounding them as they tell them they are terminal. To get that kind of emotional reaction is much more powerful and MUCH longer lasting. However, in both these methods, I have always seen suggestions phrased in the positive. I've been experimenting with this lately (no strictly for smoking issues). I don't associate positive or negative that way, I generally stay covert. I might use a metaphor here and there, but I like to just open them to alternative ways of viewing the world and their symptom by exapnding their awareness. Rather than take away their enjoyment of smoking, I'll open up their realization of the possibilities of being a non-smoker. It's difficult to explain, but if you're interested, check out Igor Ledochowski's Ming Bending Language DVD's if you can get your hands on them. This method of covert hypnosis uses negation as a fundamental element. At the end of the day, however, there's nothing wrong with a quick, authoritarian, 20minute session to stop smoking. It does the job and does it fast. Maybe that IS the most practical. Quote: I don't see where this fits in. If the general consensus is that the unconscious doesn't understand negation, you must provide evidence to make the opposite claim as others have already put forward evidence for the consensus (hence it being the consensus). Who is the general consensus? Universal truth is NOT measured in mass appeal. Quote: TL;DR: Everyone will have their own idea of what the unconscious can and cannot do from both personal experience and through others' experiences. The unconscious is a very complex thing, it is quite likely we will never understand its full scope. However, one thing we do know is this. When using a negation which deals with sensory information (eg Don't think of the pink elephant) our unconscious automatically brings this to life in our mind. When it comes to something like "Don't forget to clean your room" it might become a little different. However, for our purposes, I believe it is better to err on the side of caution, and always phrase suggestions in the positive. Wait, so you are agreeing with me? I don't disagree which is better, it was never a comparison between the two. PS Respect, I like a good debate.

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