What is Push-Pull and how do I do it...



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PostPosted: Tue Nov 15, 2016 11:09 pm 
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I never use this technique consciously so I searched the forum for the answer.

You'll have to get to at least page 5 of the search results by typing in push pull with the quick search.
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Push/Pull aka Takeaways.

The purpose of push/ pull teasing is to keep the woman that you are interested in guessing whether you like her or not. This is a very powerful form of teasing because it keeps the attraction going.

From my experience when you first met a woman if she knows that you like her 100% I have found that it kills that attraction and she loses interest rather quickly.

However with push/pull your showing your interest put you aren’t putting all your cards on the table. That keeps a woman you just met interested in you enough to want to continue to hand around you until you have sex or set up another time to meet her. Here are a few examples of push/pull teasing.

Just when I thought you were cool, I find out you can’t cook….nice meeting you (back turn).

You won me over until you said that (look away).

I thought we would get along now I know we would fight like cats and dogs. This isn’t going to work for me.

Now come up with 3 of your own push/pull teases.
Now it makes sense and I realized that I do use this, so I'll expand on the idea.

It's basically showing any negativity towards her vs being positive. I often do it through body language. If she says something I dislike I simply lean back on my heels for one. That often pulls the girl into me. Another way to use pushpull with body language is the way your shoulders and or feet are facing. Simply turning sideway where you're shoulder to shoulder is a great place to start approaches if you don't want to be too intense. Then turning to face her vs turning back out is a sub-communicated push/pull which is very powerful. I often make a point to do this to orient her body language to me when her feet or shoulders aren't facing me.

The trick I believe with this technique that works in the manner that I've done it without knowing until I officially looked at it is that you want to pattern interrupt her with the pushes and they grab her attention. It's shocking. Shock value. This is just my personal belief.

I did a google search and found a nice reddit post on the subject:
Quote:
Physical Push/Pull
Hug her and then say "Ok, that's enough" physically pushing her a little bit
Grab her and pull her into you... stare into her eyes... then scoff as if she said something lame and let her go, shaking your head and looking away. She'll ask, "What?" or laugh, and you'll just throw a skeptical look on your face and shake your head some more. "Anyway..." you'll say, continuing on with your conversation.
Why's this work? The sensation of being pulled into you is powerful - she doesn't know what you're going to do. Are you going to kiss her? Touch her? Just tease her like this? Then you act as if she did something silly and let her go... but she doesn't know why. Is it a game? Are you flirting? Did she do something wrong? Is there something wrong with her face or breath or hair?
When you hit the high point in the conversation (the girl is laughing, initiates kino etc), half turn from her, get your phone out and start reading something. Then turn back, smile and re-initiate conversation.
The thing with takeaways is you want her to get the feeling of loss, not necessarily anxiety like she would if you stated your boundaries, but more that she has to chase you, then the reward which was a smile and reinitiating conversation is essential to make her feel like she’s got your attention back. Even after doing just a small takeaway can make a big shift from you chasing her, to her chasing you. Thing about takeaways too is they can be used as pings, you can tell how much a girl is into you by how much she is willing to chase.
Emotional Push/Pull
You have the best smile I've seen tonight........(Begin counting in fingers) No wait, actually the third best
Get away from me, I can't have you around. You're way too cute and tempting
You know, I bet we'd make a really good couple. Nah, scratch that, I bet we'd fight all the time
This last example highlights one of the hidden powers of push-pull: push-pull can give you the chance to paint pictures in a woman's head that set the frame for the two of you being together. e.g., in the example just above, you paint the picture of the two of you in a relationship, then paint the picture of the two of you still in a relationship, now fighting (which is also endearing to a girl and makes it feel like she's known you far longer)
We would never get along, we are too similar
You're either the coolest girl that I've ever meet or you're the most crazy one
You are the coolest girl i've met...in the last 5 minutes
If I was into brunettes, I would be all over you.
I would invite you over sometime, but something is creepy about you
Hey, you have beautiful eyes... They are almost as pretty as mine
Say "I hate you!" while smiling and giving her a sideways hug
I did some further research on the topic because I wanted a better understanding of when to use the skill, and came by a very in depth article on the subject... http://www.girlschase.com/content/tacti ... ting-girls

The main idea for utilization of this move is:
Quote:
So you see, push-pull is actually quite simple. Either you:

Push a girl away emotionally or physically, then pull her back in, or you
Pull a girl in emotionally or physically, then push her back out
Which do you use where?

Pull her in first and push her away during earlier parts of a pick up - when you're flirting and building intrigue and attraction.
Push her away first and pull her in after during later stages of a pick up - when attraction is solid and it's time to escalate faster.
And because this is a theatrical maneuver it's best sprinkled into the seduction only once or twice verbally. The nonverbal portions can be used more often because the conscious mind doesn't pick up on the the pattern as quickly.

From my experience flirts are best used as rewards for good behavior. Not just randomly thrown into the conversation. Such as her qualifying herself or trying to make herself look good in your eyes.

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 16, 2016 7:46 am 
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Don't fill your head up with nonesense.

Flirt and tease. That's all the push/pull you need.

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 16, 2016 4:01 pm 
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That's an interesting philosophy you have there.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but you're saying that it's impossible to learn and master new techniques without overloading your brain?

I can see how that would be a concern. Especially with the attribute substitution cognitive bias. Where a person who isn't motivated enough and or too discouraged by complex data substitutes the situation for something more simple.

Flirting is a technique. With all techniques you can be better at the skill. So for those of you who like to improve measurably you'll know that focusing on certain skills and planning you're improvement of them is key.

David D (who's made over 150 million dollars) said the best way to get good at something is balancing learning practicing and doing.

SO a simple solution to the problem presented by R.C. of information overload is to study this post. Then practice the skills at home enough until you're comfortable using them. Finally while out in the field you use them at the appropriate moments. Paying attention to the response patterns you get. If it works better than randomly flirting and teasing then keep the skill. If not throw it away and go back to your old random free flow intuitive stuff.

As always, the key is to test it out in the field. But you'll want to have some skill at using it before you try it in the field obviously so practice first. At least 1 solid hour of practice. Use a timer, even if you get bored doing it during the hour keep going till the timer goes off.

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 16, 2016 4:22 pm 
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One thing that these PUA gurus do is take basic stuff too far and make things overcomplicated. If you can flirt and women like it, there's not going to be a single woman that will think, "he's good at this but he can do better." It's one of those things that you're either doing right or wrong.

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 16, 2016 4:48 pm 
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A lot of it is personal evolution also Jack. I'm of the mindset that there are simply levels to this thing. I won't argue which style is better. I'm personally going to simply try out this push pull thing and if my close ratio starts going up then great.

The power of communication can not be underestimated. The way you phrase something gives options for how the other person will respond. This isn't just coming from me either. Hardcore negotiators and FBI agents realize how important words are.

The mere altering of 1 or two words make the difference from defensive responses to co-operative ones. Or dead ends in a conversation to someone opening up and spilling useful information. Many other things I won't expand on here because I could turn this post into a book.

The point is though if you're in a conversation with someone who knows how to control it with sophistication then you'll be at their mercy. No matter how confident you are with your tone, and body language. You just get controlled.

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 16, 2016 5:16 pm 
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From personal experience, I can tell you that being good with women is much less complicated than most men think. If you're comparing it to hardcore negotiators and FBI agents then that's a level of mental masterbation that I hate to see that you're going through. A lot of those guys are trained by experts for years. You can go outside your door right now and actually approach a woman with a basic understanding of what you need to do and get a woman interested in you. There's no need for overkill. If you're worried about altering 1 or two words you're focusing on the wrong thing.

This shit is simple. Maximize your appearance/be likable/express attraction/escalation. The part that kills most guys, surprisingly, is that they can't be likable because they try too hard to be likable. If you can be likable, you'll have no problems with your close ratio.

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 16, 2016 6:33 pm 
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And that's great advise. Especially for a guy who can't do basic things like that.

If we were just talking meeting women in general then simply go out and just talk to hundreds of women and you're bound to find one that likes you.

Heck, you could even not "go out and talk" to them just expose your presence to hundreds of them through work school or walking in stores or whatever. One will eventually talk to you and then you can proceed from there.

You don't even have to work on your inner confidence or dress well, or be in shape, or even have your own place, or a job... One will still find a liking to you and say something to you.

And that's fine if that's your cup of tea, our ancestors have been successfully procreating for centuries like that.

You could say my post isn't for guys who can't talk to women because I half made it for myself and half made it for the reader. It's for people who are good who like to get better. Overkill is definitely the right word to use. Heck game is overkill if you just want to get a girl.

This is more for guys who are obsessed with self improvement. You could even call us pick up snobes. This is a game to us. And we literally have obsessions with fine tuning techniques and increasing close ratios, finding ways to make things faster and sharper and better.

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 16, 2016 6:43 pm 
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That's an interesting philosophy you have there.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but you're saying that it's impossible to learn and master new techniques without overloading your brain?
I, like Jack said, am saying that it's much easier to learn something when you're not limiting yourself. If "PUA Gurus" told you to go out there, flirt, tease and express yourself, they wouldn't have much basis to make money off you.

However if they first get you to believe there's 1000 different techniques, and if you pay them you'll master all of them - eventually.. well, that's a different business model, isn't it?
Quote:
I can see how that would be a concern. Especially with the attribute substitution cognitive bias. Where a person who isn't motivated enough and or too discouraged by complex data substitutes the situation for something more simple.
Yes.
Quote:
Flirting is a technique. With all techniques you can be better at the skill. So for those of you who like to improve measurably you'll know that focusing on certain skills and planning you're improvement of them is key.
Sure, you can look at it as a skill. And yes, you should practice it. But flirting is push/pull. Playful teases are push/pull. Backhanded compliments are push/pull. And plenty more.
However the ones that will yield you the best results are the ones that best fit your personality. And like Jack said, most new comers end up being tryhards because instead of developing their own personas, they try to emulate others.
Quote:
David D (who's made over 150 million dollars) said the best way to get good at something is balancing learning practicing and doing.

SO a simple solution to the problem presented by R.C. of information overload is to study this post. Then practice the skills at home enough until you're comfortable using them. Finally while out in the field you use them at the appropriate moments. Paying attention to the response patterns you get. If it works better than randomly flirting and teasing then keep the skill. If not throw it away and go back to your old random free flow intuitive stuff.
Look, everybody has a personality/level of intellect/values and overall character that is either compatible with another, or not. The real problem is they inhibited to expressing it.

If people don't flirt, is because they're afraid of the response.
If people don't show interest, it's because they're afraid of rejection.
If people don't express humor, it's because they're uncomfortable in the moment.
Or they simply don't feel good enough.

That's the only practice you realistically need. To step out of your comfort zone, and to continuously improve yourself.
Quote:
The power of communication can not be underestimated. The way you phrase something gives options for how the other person will respond. This isn't just coming from me either. Hardcore negotiators and FBI agents realize how important words are.
Fuck you. Or Fuck you.
Same words. One is an insult. The other is meant as a playful jab. The power of communication lies in the non-verbal. In the intentions or the emotion associated with the message.
What you feel internally will be reflected externally. So you can ultimately use whatever words you like, but as long as you don't feel worthy of that girl, it won't matter.

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 16, 2016 7:17 pm 
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This is more for guys who are obsessed with self improvement. You could even call us pick up snobes. This is a game to us. And we literally have obsessions with fine tuning techniques and increasing close ratios, finding ways to make things faster and sharper and better.
I'm going to ask this and I'm not asking it to be insulting. Do you really close women? It's odd that someone would say that flirts are best used as rewards for good behavior because you're turning pickup into a linear process. If you are being linear, you are handicapping yourself.

When I first got into pickup, I was already "closing" women and got caught up in this type of heady shit that didn't matter and actually slowed the "closing" process down. When I got burned out of the nonsense and went to being a normal guy that's not afraid to express attraction, getting laid became easier and required less effort and not even thinking about things being a numbers game.

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 16, 2016 8:06 pm 
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To R.C.

Hey man, thanks for taking the time to address me in such a measured and open way. It's refreshing because I'm a guy who responds well to reason and well thought out arguments, and I respect that a lot.

To sum it up I believe what you're telling me is that the pick-up community has evolved from marketers who try and over-complicate basic information in order to sell systems.

It's true that there are guys out there like that. Like I said to jack though if it all boils down to just getting a woman then even going out there flirting, teasing and expressing yourself is an over complication. You literally don't need confidence, a clean style, a job, or anything to get a girl.

Here's and example. I found myself homeless for a few days. I found a place to take showers, and even washed up in hospital bathrooms. I wore cloths that weren't fashionable at all, and I had on dirty combat boots walking around with a trashbag. I was actively trying to avoid talking to people at this point. Women still started conversations with me, and not just homeless women either...

I believe it sparked their nurturer instincts, but I'm not going to bore you with my theory on why I was attractive as a street urchin. The point is that if we are just going to simplify all of this down to simply getting a woman, then all you have to do is be a man and put yourself infront of enough of them.

I agree that people should choose to do stuff that best fits their personalities. You also have options to change your personality and situation. It's not impossible, but that's just if you want to... you don't have to. Free will, there are no rules in life.

For instance when I was homeless I had the most freedom. I had shelters where I could go get showers and sleep. A ton of places give food to the homeless so I ate for free at least 3 times a day easily, and churches and stuff give you cloths. Best of all you have absolutely no responsibilities, and plenty of women around wanting to "save" you. But, you know...fuck that.

I also want to make a distinction. If you cannot flirt, unable to show interest or express humor because of fear you need to work on conquering your fear. That's not the point of this post. The point is a focus on a specific flirting technique. Elaborating on it's definition and pointing out specific applications to it. You'd agree that I'm not advocating trying to use this technique as a crutch to overcome an avoidance of the basic fundamentals of talking to women right? That would be ridiculous and hurtful.

I like your comments on displaying intent with the words. It's a separate subject matter though. The words themselves play a role for what direction you want to point someone in. The intent behind the words plays a factor as well, no doubt about it. I would love to talk about that further with you because I'm sure you could share something you may have come across that I haven't yet, but we'll save that for another thread.

To Jack:

As I listen to you it appears to me that you're of the mind that a person who studies and applies knowledge is somehow less than a man who just goes out without study and wings it. They both are in the field. One is just more prepared than the other. I don't know how you go about learning new skills. If you try and fail a lot then there may be something flawed in your learning system.

Here's an analogy. You want to learn how to box. You get some general tips on boxing: keep your hands up, try to hit him without getting hit, use movement. Then you just go have a 1000 boxing matches with those general tips. Of course you'll eventually adapt and get good through the experience naturally with whatever your personality is like. It's how our minds work. But you're results will be based on whatever your natural talent is. Nothing more, nothing less.

But if instead you learn what a jab is, you learn head movement, you learn how to throw counters, you spar practicing and fine tuning the techniques then when you enter the matches your progress will be much faster. Why? because this stuff has already been tested out by others and proven to be optimal. You going into 1000 matches getting your ass kicked in the lion's share of those is just you learning what works and what doesn't work when someone else has already done that for you.

You have a paradigm of how the world works for you, and that's where you're speaking from. I don't intend to convince you against your beliefs that my way of study-practice-do is the best method for achieving results.

Mainly because with cognitive dissonance there's something called a Belief dis-confirmation paradigm. It's how many people treat new information that's counter to their current belief systems. Mis-perception (which you do with me by categorizing me in with people who can't get results). Rejection of the information, refutation of the information, seeking support from like minded individuals, and trying to persuade others that you're right.

All I can do is smile when I see people play out it's pattern. I take no offense. :twisted:

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Last edited by Starboy on Wed Nov 16, 2016 8:36 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 16, 2016 8:35 pm 
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As I listen to you it appears to me that you're of the mind that a person who studies and applies knowledge is somehow less than a man who just goes out without study and wings it. They both are in the field. One is just more prepared than the other. I don't know how you go about learning new skills. If you try and fail a lot then there may be something flawed in your learning system.
You'd be wrong with that assumption about me. I am a constant studier in behavior. Hell, it's the field that I work in. The problem is the PUA adaptations of actual human behavior is normally applied the wrong way. Basically, it's P-hacking of information that has already been P-hacked. As I've become more educated in human behavior, I've learned that the basic stuff is the best stuff.
Quote:
Here's an analogy. You want to learn how to box. You get some general tips on boxing: keep your hands up, try to hit him without getting hit, use movement. Then you just go have a 1000 boxing matches with those general tips. Of course you'll eventually adapt and get good through the experience naturally with whatever your personality is like. It's how our minds work. But you're results will be based on whatever your natural talent is. Nothing more, nothing less.

But if instead you learn what a jab is, you learn head movement, you learn how to throw counters, you spar practicing and fine tuning the techniques then when you enter the matches your progress will be much faster. Why? because this stuff has already been tested out by others and proven to be optimal. You going into 1000 matches getting your ass kicked in the lion's share of those is just you learning what works and what doesn't work when someone else has already done that for you.
Let's build on your analogy. Someone gives you bad advice on boxing, which ends up causing you to take more hits than you need to take. You may end up winning some matches, but those hits are frustrating and may take away the desire of wanting to box again. One day you realize that bad advice has caused you a lot of unnecessary pain and kept you from winning some fights you should have won, but now if you decide to continue on you have to unlearn the bad advice and thinking that you thought you should have embraced.
Quote:
You have a paradigm of how the world works for you, and that's where you're speaking from. I don't intend to convince you against your beliefs that my way of study-practice-do is the best method for achieving results.

Mainly because with cognitive dissonance there's something called a Belief dis-confirmation paradigm. It's how many people treat new information that's counter to their current belief systems. Mis-perception (which you do with me by categorizing me in with people who can't get results). Rejection of the information, refutation of the information, seeking support from like minded individuals, and trying to persuade others that you're right.

All I can do is smile when I see people play out it's pattern completely unaware.
Again, I have a real education on human behavior. I am very aware of how belief systems are built (and you've left out confirmation bias while you are trying to educate me on the subject). I also have real life experience.

The thing that you are discounting is the fact that I gave you a simplistic description of what you need to get laid. No matter what you are trying to correct me on, what you are talking about still has a place in that system. I'm trying to point you in the direction of being more efficient. I'm not against "study-practice-do", but what you are talking about is information overload.

BTW...I didn't catagorize you with people who can't get results. I asked you a question.

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 16, 2016 8:43 pm 
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That makes a lot of sense. I see where we have common ground here.

Having the right information is vital, and is the most challenging aspect of learning new skills. Since you really don't know what's right or wrong without research and even then you still have to test it. So you don't like push/pull flirt tactics? Can you explain to me why the specific technique is bad because it would definitely add to the quality of the thread. This is my first attempt at learning the skill and so any landmines you know of will be a huge asset.

What is it that you study as far as human behavior? That makes you a professional and I'd be a fool to not take you seriously, and so I'm curious.

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 16, 2016 8:49 pm 
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You literally don't need confidence, a clean style, a job, or anything to get a girl.
If you run by a pure numbers game then sure, you may get lucky. Then again you can also win the lottery but that doesn't mean you know how to make money.
Regardless though, there's a big difference between getting a girl and keeping the girl.

Anyway, I'm not saying you're wrong. There is a midline between knowledge and practice. However that midline is ironically the cancer of this community as well. It's classic paralysis by analysis. One thing leads to another and they've been studying for 3 years and never talked to a girl once.
You can also make the argument that they're using their "lack of knowledge" as an excuse to not actually start facing the challenge, and you'd be completely right.

There's also a matter of progression. It's not linear. You can get good with women, relatively fast. So good that you'll do better than 90% of the guys out there. So good that you won't find yourself in any kind of shortage at any given time.
And for most people that are not looking to make some sort of career out of it, being the best boxer in your gym, being more than capable of defending yourself in any given situation and reaping all the other side benefits is enough.

It's a steep learning curve, like skiing or bodybuilding, and the point in time where effort maximizes while progression minimizes can be hit relatively quickly. The most experienced guys will recognize that and that's the reason they generally tend to discourage going in depth on subjects that are fundamentally non complex.

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 16, 2016 9:03 pm 
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That makes a lot of sense. I see where we have common ground here.

Having the right information is vital, and is the most challenging aspect of learning new skills. Since you really don't know what's right or wrong without research and even then you still have to test it. So you don't like push/pull flirt tactics? Can you explain to me why the specific technique is bad because it would definitely add to the quality of the thread. This is my first attempt at learning the skill and so any landmines you know of will be a huge asset.

What is it that you study as far as human behavior? That makes you a professional and I'd be a fool to not take you seriously, and so I'm curious.
Don't get me wrong. I don't see anything wrong with push/pull flirting tactics, but at the same time it's not going to put you over the top if the initial attraction is established. That's why I said being likable is important(flirting and being fun is one of the easiest route). If a girl thinks to herself, "I like being around this guy," and then he says directly to her, "I think you're hot," she's going to in turn find him attractive...maybe not "he's hot" attractive but "worth seeing where this goes" attractive. That gets you in the position of being able to escalate.

The only real problem with push/pull tactics is the individual and their sensitivity and coming across the outliers who react negatively to the push and in return you can never pull back in.

To me, there are topics that just take you into a bottomless pit of "how do I improve that", when you don't need to improve.

I hold a degree in psychology (minor sociology) and my advanced degree is in marketing. I work for a consulting firm that helps companies force a market reaction to their marketing campaigns. So I study a lot about influence, crowd psychology, and compliance.

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 18, 2016 5:00 am 
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Nice discussion.


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