Hey man, thanks for taking the time to address me in such a measured and open way. It's refreshing because I'm a guy who responds well to reason and well thought out arguments, and I respect that a lot.
To sum it up I believe what you're telling me is that the pick-up community has evolved from marketers who try and over-complicate basic information in order to sell systems.
It's true that there are guys out there like that. Like I said to jack though if it all boils down to just getting a woman then even going out there flirting, teasing and expressing yourself is an over complication. You literally don't need confidence, a clean style, a job, or anything to get a girl.
Here's and example. I found myself homeless for a few days. I found a place to take showers, and even washed up in hospital bathrooms. I wore cloths that weren't fashionable at all, and I had on dirty combat boots walking around with a trashbag. I was actively trying to avoid talking to people at this point. Women still started conversations with me, and not just homeless women either...
I believe it sparked their nurturer instincts, but I'm not going to bore you with my theory on why I was attractive as a street urchin. The point is that if we are just going to simplify all of this down to simply getting a woman, then all you have to do is be a man and put yourself infront of enough of them.
I agree that people should choose to do stuff that best fits their personalities. You also have options to change your personality and situation. It's not impossible, but that's just if you want to... you don't have to. Free will, there are no rules in life.
For instance when I was homeless I had the most freedom. I had shelters where I could go get showers and sleep. A ton of places give food to the homeless so I ate for free at least 3 times a day easily, and churches and stuff give you cloths. Best of all you have absolutely no responsibilities, and plenty of women around wanting to "save" you. But, you know...fuck that.
I also want to make a distinction. If you cannot flirt, unable to show interest or express humor because of fear you need to work on conquering your fear. That's not the point of this post. The point is a focus on a specific flirting technique. Elaborating on it's definition and pointing out specific applications to it. You'd agree that I'm not advocating trying to use this technique as a crutch to overcome an avoidance of the basic fundamentals of talking to women right? That would be ridiculous and hurtful.
I like your comments on displaying intent with the words. It's a separate subject matter though. The words themselves play a role for what direction you want to point someone in. The intent behind the words plays a factor as well, no doubt about it. I would love to talk about that further with you because I'm sure you could share something you may have come across that I haven't yet, but we'll save that for another thread.
As I listen to you it appears to me that you're of the mind that a person who studies and applies knowledge is somehow less than a man who just goes out without study and wings it. They both are in the field. One is just more prepared than the other. I don't know how you go about learning new skills. If you try and fail a lot then there may be something flawed in your learning system.
Here's an analogy. You want to learn how to box. You get some general tips on boxing: keep your hands up, try to hit him without getting hit, use movement. Then you just go have a 1000 boxing matches with those general tips. Of course you'll eventually adapt and get good through the experience naturally with whatever your personality is like. It's how our minds work. But you're results will be based on whatever your natural talent is. Nothing more, nothing less.
But if instead you learn what a jab is, you learn head movement, you learn how to throw counters, you spar practicing and fine tuning the techniques then when you enter the matches your progress will be much faster. Why? because this stuff has already been tested out by others and proven to be optimal. You going into 1000 matches getting your ass kicked in the lion's share of those is just you learning what works and what doesn't work when someone else has already done that for you.
You have a paradigm of how the world works for you, and that's where you're speaking from. I don't intend to convince you against your beliefs that my way of study-practice-do is the best method for achieving results.
Mainly because with cognitive dissonance there's something called a Belief dis-confirmation paradigm. It's how many people treat new information that's counter to their current belief systems. Mis-perception (which you do with me by categorizing me in with people who can't get results). Rejection of the information, refutation of the information, seeking support from like minded individuals, and trying to persuade others that you're right.
All I can do is smile when I see people play out it's pattern. I take no offense.